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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:35 am 
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Allan Holdsworth should be moved on the list. Especially considering he is ranked 7th on the "Greatest Jazz Guitarists" list.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:15 pm 
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The Guitarists list is a musicians list, while this is an artists list, and the criteria for judging the two are a good deal different from one another. So there would be big discrepancies between the two lists even if they had the same editor, which they don't. Also, the guitar is a fairly minor instrument in jazz history, at least when compared to the sax, trumpet, piano, bass & drums, and maybe also clarinet and vocals.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:19 am 
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Brian wrote:
The Guitarists list is a musicians list, while this is an artists list, and the criteria for judging the two are a good deal different from one another. So there would be big discrepancies between the two lists even if they had the same editor, which they don't. Also, the guitar is a fairly minor instrument in jazz history, at least when compared to the sax, trumpet, piano, bass & drums, and maybe also clarinet and vocals.



Somewhat understandable. Yet, I think Holdsworth could be like 95-100.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:40 am 
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wait, how is Sinatra not jazz? is swing not jazz? is big band not jazz? was he not singing jazz standards?

i dont fully understand why "vocal" or "vocal pop" is its own genre.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Generally speaking, swing is jazz, but there are some artists that are generally labelled as "swing" that compromised the jazz elements to such a degree that it's questionable that they should be considered jazz. It may be best to consider them jazz-influenced pop. For this list, I judged Glenn Miller to be just barely on the jazz side of the jazz/pop divide, and Frank Sinatra borderline at best, but both cases are debatable.

"Big band" often refers to a way of playing swing (swing can also be played by small groups), so what I said above about swing also applies to big band. (It doesn't matter in this case, but there's also some big band jazz that isn't swing.)

Sinatra sang standards, but they really were pop standards, though pop standards were often played by jazz artists too.

What is your statement about "vocal pop" in reference to? Because I'm not sure I'd call "vocal pop" its own genre either.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:59 am 
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"It’s always night or we wouldn’t need light." (Monk)


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:57 pm 
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Monk was a genius. I'm glad he is as high as he is on this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:43 am 
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Brian wrote:
Generally speaking, swing is jazz, but there are some artists that are generally labelled as "swing" that compromised the jazz elements to such a degree that it's questionable that they should be considered jazz. It may be best to consider them jazz-influenced pop. For this list, I judged Glenn Miller to be just barely on the jazz side of the jazz/pop divide, and Frank Sinatra borderline at best, but both cases are debatable.

"Big band" often refers to a way of playing swing (swing can also be played by small groups), so what I said above about swing also applies to big band. (It doesn't matter in this case, but there's also some big band jazz that isn't swing.)

Sinatra sang standards, but they really were pop standards, though pop standards were often played by jazz artists too.

What is your statement about "vocal pop" in reference to? Because I'm not sure I'd call "vocal pop" its own genre either.



I always thought traditional pop and jazz were like almost the same thing? Frank Sinatra is labeled as doing both traditional pop and jazz, right? I thought traditional pop was like a sub-genre of jazz. Sorry, but I've always been a bit confused when it comes to traditional pop and jazz.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Traditional pop includes artists like Bing Crosby, Al Jolson, Perry Como, Johnny Mathis, and Andy Williams, and they generally aren't considered jazz.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Traditional pop includes artists like Bing Crosby, Al Jolson, Perry Como, Johnny Mathis, and Andy Williams, and they generally aren't considered jazz.



Hmmm, that's wierd because in my jazz book for a jazz class I took there is a chapter discussing jazz singers. Frank Sinatra and many other singers were discussed in how they were "great jazz singers" or whatnot. Also, many websites list Sinatra as doing pop and jazz:
http://jazz.about.com/od/classicjazzart ... inatra.htm
http://www.jazzsingers.com/FrankSinatra/
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=2134


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:14 pm 
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i think a lot of things have to be considered... repertoire, phrasing, improvisation/scat singing... i feel like sinatra's early stuff is borderline jazz because of the "swingin'" arrangements, but they were so tight and lacking in solos and improvisation (on either the singer's or the instrumentalists' part) that i think it's more like jazz-influenced traditional pop.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:18 pm 
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i'll get an argument together later and post it, but i'll just throw this out here for now to see if anyone else feels this way... is Jelly Roll like 10 spots too low on this list?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am 
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He should be higher. I also think that Herbie should move down


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Herbie shouldn't move down. He's been at the forefront of virtually every jazz movement since the 60s, pretty much becoming an outright musical chameleon in the same way as Miles.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:48 pm 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
Herbie shouldn't move down. He's been at the forefront of virtually every jazz movement since the 60s, pretty much becoming an outright musical chameleon in the same way as Miles.


Coincidence?


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