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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:46 pm 
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chicken sandwich wrote:
Not many guys pitch above the age of 40 so thats a small sample size. .


Yes, and so is the sample size of pitchers who are dead.

Not many pitchers pitch after 40 because they are not good enough anymore to be in the major leagues. When one does pitch after 40, and pitches at all star levels and wins a Cy Young, it's because he had help.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
monga18 wrote:
Connie Mack - intentionally left out. Racked up a million wins but also a million losses.


Mack was a great manager. His career record only looks bad because he took a huge beating when the stock market crashed and he kept the team for another 20 years after that, when he had no money to stay competetive.

Up until that happened he was pretty much the most succesful manager in history, winning nine pennants and five world championships in his first 31 years. He had two of the most legendary dynasties ever, the 1910-1914 team that won 4 pennants and 3 world chamionships with the $100,000 infield, and then the 1929-1931 team that won three straight pennants and two world championships with legendary stars Lefty Grove, jimmie Foxx, Mickey Cochrane and Al Simmons. Holding the last 19 seasons against him would be like holding the early Mets teams against Stengel.


Did you read the entire post? Mack is not like Stengel at all. Stengel managed an expansion team for four years and quit. Mack managed a team he owned, so not only could he never be fired but he was responsible for purging it of talent on multiple occasions. You mention the last 20 years but the 1915-19 A's were a far uglier sight - 3 years of sub-.300 win% and a .305 win% overall. That's the worst 5-year stretch any team has ever had and almost certainly will be that forever. And unlike Stengel he is personally and solely responsible because he traded Collins, Baker and the rest BECAUSE HE OWNED THE TEAM. Mack did a fine job in the years when he was willing to pay for talent but there's very little reason to think he's some kind of genius. He certainly doesn't belong anywhere near John McGraw, who had 4 losing seasons in 33 years (Mack had 25 out of 50) and a .586 win% (Mack's was .486%).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:24 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
pgm wrote:
It's definitely true that the Gold Glove does not always reward the best defensive player, but rather the great defensive player with name recognition. The same is true about the All Defensive Team in the NBA.

Mays was a way better defensive player than Ichiro. He also had a few great defensive years before they created the Gold Glove. I would say it's between Mays and Tris Speaker for the best defensive player at that position.


I think Andruw Jones and Max Carey are in the mix.


I think you have to strongly penalize Andruw Jones for turning into a fat tub of shit at age 30 and becoming worse than useless with the glove. To be "in the mix" he'd have to have been twice as good as Mays in his 20-29 seasons and I have very little reason to think he was.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
BayPineapple wrote:
He is not a cheater. Steroid use is so overblown. Sure, it makes you stronger, but at the end of the day everybody used it, even pitchers. It all canceled out.



If all it did was cancel out, why did he have by far his best years at the age of 39-41?

Never before in baseball history has a great player been better in his late 30s and 40s than he was in his late 20s.

Doesn't that tell you anything?


Luke Appling's best season (by OPS+) came at age 36, and he was roughly as valuable from age 39-42 as any other point in his career. Obviously not frequent but it did happen now and then.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
chicken sandwich wrote:
Not many guys pitch above the age of 40 so thats a small sample size. .


Yes, and so is the sample size of pitchers who are dead.


What? No it's not.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:57 pm 
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monga18 wrote:
Bruce wrote:
monga18 wrote:
Connie Mack - intentionally left out. Racked up a million wins but also a million losses.


Mack was a great manager. His career record only looks bad because he took a huge beating when the stock market crashed and he kept the team for another 20 years after that, when he had no money to stay competetive.

Up until that happened he was pretty much the most succesful manager in history, winning nine pennants and five world championships in his first 31 years. He had two of the most legendary dynasties ever, the 1910-1914 team that won 4 pennants and 3 world chamionships with the $100,000 infield, and then the 1929-1931 team that won three straight pennants and two world championships with legendary stars Lefty Grove, jimmie Foxx, Mickey Cochrane and Al Simmons. Holding the last 19 seasons against him would be like holding the early Mets teams against Stengel.


Did you read the entire post? Mack is not like Stengel at all. Stengel managed an expansion team for four years and quit. Mack managed a team he owned, so not only could he never be fired but he was responsible for purging it of talent on multiple occasions. You mention the last 20 years but the 1915-19 A's were a far uglier sight - 3 years of sub-.300 win% and a .305 win% overall. That's the worst 5-year stretch any team has ever had and almost certainly will be that forever. And unlike Stengel he is personally and solely responsible because he traded Collins, Baker and the rest BECAUSE HE OWNED THE TEAM. Mack did a fine job in the years when he was willing to pay for talent but there's very little reason to think he's some kind of genius. He certainly doesn't belong anywhere near John McGraw, who had 4 losing seasons in 33 years (Mack had 25 out of 50) and a .586 win% (Mack's was .486%).


The A's of the late teens got that way because team owner Mack had money problems. It had NOTHING to do with him not being a good manager.

In case you missed it, Mack beat McGraw head to head in two out of three world series where they opposed each other. I'm not saying that Mack should outrank McGraw, but I think you;re underrating him as a manager. He may not have been a great owner and/or GM, but he was a great manager.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:07 pm 
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monga18 wrote:
Luke Appling's best season (by OPS+) came at age 36, and he was roughly as valuable from age 39-42 as any other point in his career. Obviously not frequent but it did happen now and then.


Appling from 39-42 was not near as good as he was from 28-30.

WAR
28-30 - 3 seasons - 20.7
39-42 - 4 seasons - 16.2

But he was one of the few players who was still very good after 40. Bonds was just about the greatest single season player of all time at the age of 40 in 2004.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:36 pm 
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The thing about Mack is not that his teams got bad when he ran out of money, but that they got all-time awful. Replacement level is about 48-50 wins in a 162 game season. That's a .300 win%. That is what a team of total, league minimum-earning scrubs should be able to do given absolutely no advantages - and having a great manager should be an advantage, shouldn't it? A great manager should never, ever finish below .300 - Mack did it three times*. So like I said, while he was certainly a good manager and arguably a great evaluator of talent (but again, if he was so great why couldn't he find bargains during the lean years?) there's little reason to think he was a genius. A genius doesn't lose that many games even with scrubs.

*Yeah, yeah, Casey Stengel. But Stengel did it only the once, in 1962 - also he was 71 years old and coming off a hiatus whereas Mack was in his 50s. Also Stengel was the best tactical manager of all time whereas Mack was mostly hands-off.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:58 pm 
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monga18 wrote:
The thing about Mack is not that his teams got bad when he ran out of money, but that they got all-time awful.


he figured if he wasn't gonna be good he might as well sell of all the talent he can get good money for and just be awful until he coul rebuild.

monga18 wrote:
So like I said, while he was certainly a good manager and arguably a great evaluator of talent (but again, if he was so great why couldn't he find bargains during the lean years?)


What bargains, there were no free agents in those days, and very few trades either. He really could only replenish his team with his farm system.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
I think Andruw Jones and Max Carey are in the mix.


I'd agree.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:40 pm 
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pgm wrote:
Bruce wrote:
I think Andruw Jones and Max Carey are in the mix.


I'd agree.


Also Curt Flood. His defensive win shares per inning in CF were the best ever I believe. Paul Blair is real high in defensive WAR.

Andruw Jones is the top OFer of all time in defensive WAR.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... reer.shtml

One of the best of the early guys is Curt Welch. Terry Moore was also excellent.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:21 pm 
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I think we need some more Russ Davis up in this list


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:29 pm 
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john17 wrote:
I think we need some more Russ Davis up in this list


I think we do need a batboy.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Speaking of Giants I absolutely loathed 10 years ago. Imagine a team with these fucking scrubs, all having the worst season of their careers, and all doing it with regular or semi-regular playing time:

Russ Davis
JT Snow
Marvin Benard
Alan Embree (ERA: 11.25!)
Pedro Feliz
Shawon Dunston
Livan Hernandez

That team finished 2 games out of first place (thanks to Barry Bonds and Rich Aurilia). Man was that a frustrating year. Bill Mueller was off doing dick for Chicago but if we'd kept him instead of Davis and Feliz we'd have made the playoffs. If John Johnstone doesn't blow his arm out we don't give Alan Embree 20 innings and we probably win the division. I mean Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:35 pm 
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:lol:


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