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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:21 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
[oh I see you are going by sales, I am going by how well would they do today, while neither of them with their style would dominate todays music scene, with hip hop inspired music dominating, certainly berry would hold up better not by alot than dylan,


Dylan has had big hit albums in recent years, hasn't he?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:45 pm 
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I believe both Modern Times and Time Out of Mind went platinum. The latter even won a Grammy for Album of the Year. A trivial and meaningless event, but I reckon it demonstrates a high degree of success.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:18 pm 
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I think mrsamtotheg means hypothetically if both artists were removed of their legendary status and were to debut this year, then hypothetically which one would sell more?

If this is the case then my answer is: "why should it matter?"

edit: If the idea is to show who's style has held up better over time, then this is kinda more referring to influence than popularity.

Besides, by this logic, Run-DMC should top both Dylan AND Berry.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:33 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
I know about the original one after 909 it was written prior to 1963


Then why did you list it as an example of later Beatles songwriting being influenced by Berry? Were you lying?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
it was released in 1963 sounding like chuck berry


Actually, it wasn't released at that time.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
,really revolution with its guitar intro and choppy rhythm thats a chuck influenced 50s style song, listen to you cant catch me , the line here comes old flat top came from there


That's "Come Together". "Revolution" has no such line. The guitar playing on "Revolution" owes a debt to Chuck Berry--there's no question that Berry is huge as a guitar player and Dylan is not--but the songwriting has much more to do with Dylan. Listen to the slow version and that's even more apparent.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
the way the verses are sung by lennon he got from chuck berry not dylan for come together, in fact I can see that same song influencing bob dylans tombstone blues, get back has chucks rockabilly rhythm and guitar lead licks thru out whole song


Again, guitar playing isn't songwriting. And "rockabilly" is more characteristic of Carl Perkins or Scotty Moore than Berry, although I certainly don't have a problem with saying that the guitar playing on "Get Back" is influenced by Chuck Berry.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
,as for I saw her standing there check out talking to you , the bassline is ISHST, you never even listened enough to chuck berry , anyone who follows him can hear the influence clear as day,its chuck not little richard,


"Little Richard's influence pervaded The Beatles' songwriting to the extent that such hits as 'I Saw Her Standing There' and 'I'm Down' were composed as a tribute to his unique style."

That's from the liner notes to Paul McCartney's album Choba B CCCP. The notes were written by Beatles expert Roy Carr and obviously approved by McCartney himself. You think you know more about the subject than they do?


mrsamtotheg wrote:
listen to too much monkey business sounds like subterrianian homesick blues, it was a forerunner to subterrian , bob dylan himself said so, wow you have never even heard berry apart from probaly 3 songs, you are not even qualified to rank him,


No shit, "Subterranean Homesick Blues" was influenced by Chuck Berry. We weren't even talking about that song, and I never denied that Dylan was influenced by Berry. Why you think that bringing up something we weren't talking about means that I don't know what I'm talking about is beyond me.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
buddy hollys oh boy influenced by chuck berry, and back in the usa was inspiration for back in the ussr the beatles themselves said so, surfin usa by the beach boys is sweet little sixteen ,brian wilson himself said so. chuck had a huge influence on the beach boys as well, not so much dylan, the stones hugely influenced by chuck , more so than dylan, and dylan himself was influenced by chuck NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.


Chuck Berry was influenced by Charles Brown, not the other way around. But Chuck Berry was a much greater songwriter than Charles Brown.

Lennon and McCartney were influenced by Carl Perkins, not the other way around. But Lennon and McCartney were much, much greater songwriters than Carl Perkins.

And, yes, there's no doubt that Berry was the biggest influence on the Beach boys, and that Dylan's influence on them was minimal. No one's disputing that Berry is one of the most influential songwriters in rock--we're comparing two of the top songwriters to see who should be ranked higher. Again, do you really want me to start listing songwriters who were more influenced by Dylan?


mrsamtotheg wrote:
The ramones were heavy influenced by chuck too, the stooges ac/dc and mc5 ,just the fact that chuck influenced BOB Dylan and not the other way makes it hard for dylan to rank ahead of him, as for popularity more people are covering chuck songs,like back in the usa, and johnny b goode, than things like desolation row and visions of johanna,


You're obviously picking and choosing to suit your point, picking two of Berry's biggest hits and comparing them to two middling-importance Dylan album tracks. Chuck has maybe ten songs or so that are widely recorded. Dylan has more--"Blowin' In The Wind", "Don't Think Twice It's All Right", "The Times They Are A-Changin''', "It Ain't Me Babe", "Like A Rolling Stone", "Mr. Tambourine Man", "I Shall Be Released", "Knockin' On Heaven's Door", "All Along The Watchtower", "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight", "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue", "Just Like A Woman", "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere", "Forever Young", "If Not For You", even the recent "Make You Feel My Love". And as you go deeper into Dylan's catalog you'll find more significant covers--yes, even of "Desolation Row" (a top twenty Modern Rock hit for My Chemical Romance in 2009, and a Grateful Dead concert staple) and "Visions Of Johanna" (also done by the Dead, along with Robyn Hitchcock, Marianne Faithfull, Chris Smither, and others).

mrsamtotheg wrote:
Its questionable if that singer songwriter crap james taylor , and joni mitchell were doing is even considered rock, its certainly not more rock than punk.


It's not more rock than punk, but it's not really less rock than punk, either. They're clearly part of the world of rock and roll, and indeed the fact that they are is part of why Dylan is so important. Folk was its own thing, separate from rock, until Dylan came along. But Taylor and Mitchell aren't folk artists in the sense that pre-Dylan artists were.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
way to exaggerate dylans influence , paul did not get fool on the hill influences from dylan ,with those simple lyrics, and that emphasis on melody (bob was never that intricate or focused on melody , he put his emphasis on lyrics)


I don't know what you mean by "emphasis on melody", but while I was mostly thinking of the lyrical influence there, I don't see anything about the melody that isn't compatible with, say, "It Ain't Me Babe" or something.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
I am the walrus is dylan inspired for sure.
your ignorance is showing again, chuck was the rock n roll song writer , elvis put rock on the map , chuck was its song writer in the 50's


"Chuck was the rock n roll song writer"? What does that mean? What about Leiber and Stoller? Fats Domino and Dave Bartholomew? Little Richard? Buddy Holly? The Bryants? Pomus and Shuman?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
what!?, do you play instruments have you ever written a song ,? a production trick is overdubbing ala les paul , or wall of sound ala phil spector, thats a songwriting ,


No, the instruments you choose and the way you use them has NOTHING to do with songwriting. Otherwise cover versions would use the same instruments as the originals. If a piano player is influenced by what Fats Domino did on "Blueberry Hill", is he being influenced by Fats and Dave Bartholemew or by Vincent Rose?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
you dont know enough about any of the 50' artists , I know what it is now, its ignorance and biased on your part, I will be arguing for the everly brothers next, I dont expect you to chime in that debate at all.


I know plenty about the 50s artists. You're making shit up.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Chaplin wrote:
I think mrsamtotheg means hypothetically if both artists were removed of their legendary status and were to debut this year, then hypothetically which one would sell more?

If this is the case then my answer is: "why should it matter?"

edit: If the idea is to show who's style has held up better over time, then this is kinda more referring to influence than popularity.

Besides, by this logic, Run-DMC should top both Dylan AND Berry.


yes that was the hypothetical assuming none of them were selling today, but I looked up what bruce said and it was true so , seeing how dylan gets popularity and acclaim thought not easily as some people think, he edges berry on the criteria , the only way chuck can be ranked ahead of dylan dispite dylan edging him in the criteria is becuase he did it first , his impacted was earlier while rock was still forming so he help essential define rock n roll with his song writing ,so I am fine either way with the rankings.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
I know about the original one after 909 it was written prior to 1963


Then why did you list it as an example of later Beatles songwriting being influenced by Berry? Were you lying?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
it was released in 1963 sounding like chuck berry


Actually, it wasn't released at that time.

correct it was recorded around that time, it was never released I am talking about the fast version of one after 909

mrsamtotheg wrote:
,really revolution with its guitar intro and choppy rhythm thats a chuck influenced 50s style song, listen to you cant catch me , the line here comes old flat top came from there


That's "Come Together". "Revolution" has no such line. The guitar playing on "Revolution" owes a debt to Chuck Berry--there's no question that Berry is huge as a guitar player and Dylan is not--but the songwriting has much more to do with Dylan. Listen to the slow version and that's even more apparent.

the slow version still has that intro and the choppy guitar rhythm, I knew that was come together , I should have written that out clearer.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
the way the verses are sung by lennon he got from chuck berry not dylan for come together, in fact I can see that same song influencing bob dylans tombstone blues, get back has chucks rockabilly rhythm and guitar lead licks thru out whole song


Again, guitar playing isn't songwriting. And "rockabilly" is more characteristic of Carl Perkins or Scotty Moore than Berry, although I certainly don't have a problem with saying that the guitar playing on "Get Back" is influenced by Chuck Berry.

moron , writing riffs and guitar intros etc, thats song writing, so I guess if i write a whole song on guitar with no lyrics I did not write a song , I am not a song writer ,right?.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
,as for I saw her standing there check out talking to you , the bassline is ISHST, you never even listened enough to chuck berry , anyone who follows him can hear the influence clear as day,its chuck not little richard,


"Little Richard's influence pervaded The Beatles' songwriting to the extent that such hits as 'I Saw Her Standing There' and 'I'm Down' were composed as a tribute to his unique style."

listen to talking to you by chuck berry , anyone ever hear both listen to you and I saw her standing there, can anyone else comment on this.

That's from the liner notes to Paul McCartney's album Choba B CCCP. The notes were written by Beatles expert Roy Carr and obviously approved by McCartney himself. You think you know more about the subject than they do?

roy carr is an idiot than, listen to im talking to you , its obvious it came from chuck berry.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
listen to too much monkey business sounds like subterrianian homesick blues, it was a forerunner to subterrian , bob dylan himself said so, wow you have never even heard berry apart from probaly 3 songs, you are not even qualified to rank him,


No shit, "Subterranean Homesick Blues" was influenced by Chuck Berry. We weren't even talking about that song, and I never denied that Dylan was influenced by Berry. Why you think that bringing up something we weren't talking about means that I don't know what I'm talking about is beyond me.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
buddy hollys oh boy influenced by chuck berry, and back in the usa was inspiration for back in the ussr the beatles themselves said so, surfin usa by the beach boys is sweet little sixteen ,brian wilson himself said so. chuck had a huge influence on the beach boys as well, not so much dylan, the stones hugely influenced by chuck , more so than dylan, and dylan himself was influenced by chuck NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.


Chuck Berry was influenced by Charles Brown, not the other way around. But Chuck Berry was a much greater songwriter than Charles Brown.

Lennon and McCartney were influenced by Carl Perkins, not the other way around. But Lennon and McCartney were much, much greater songwriters than Carl Perkins.

And, yes, there's no doubt that Berry was the biggest influence on the Beach boys, and that Dylan's influence on them was minimal. No one's disputing that Berry is one of the most influential songwriters in rock--we're comparing two of the top songwriters to see who should be ranked higher. Again, do you really want me to start listing songwriters who were more influenced by Dylan? please list these guys ,list the ones that are not simultaneously influenced by chuck.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
The ramones were heavy influenced by chuck too, the stooges ac/dc and mc5 ,just the fact that chuck influenced BOB Dylan and not the other way makes it hard for dylan to rank ahead of him, as for popularity more people are covering chuck songs,like back in the usa, and johnny b goode, than things like desolation row and visions of johanna,


You're obviously picking and choosing to suit your point, picking two of Berry's biggest hits and comparing them to two middling-importance Dylan album tracks. Chuck has maybe ten songs or so that are widely recorded. Dylan has more--"Blowin' In The Wind", "Don't Think Twice It's All Right", "The Times They Are A-Changin''', "It Ain't Me Babe", "Like A Rolling Stone", "Mr. Tambourine Man", "I Shall Be Released", "Knockin' On Heaven's Door", "All Along The Watchtower", "I'll Be Your Baby Tonight", "It's All Over Now, Baby Blue", "Just Like A Woman", "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere", "Forever Young", "If Not For You", even the recent "Make You Feel My Love". And as you go deeper into Dylan's catalog you'll find more significant covers--yes, even of "Desolation Row" (a top twenty Modern Rock hit for My Chemical Romance in 2009, and a Grateful Dead concert staple) and "Visions Of Johanna" (also done by the Dead, along with Robyn Hitchcock, Marianne Faithfull, Chris Smither, and others).

mrsamtotheg wrote:
Its questionable if that singer songwriter crap james taylor , and joni mitchell were doing is even considered rock, its certainly not more rock than punk.


It's not more rock than punk, but it's not really less rock than punk, either. They're clearly part of the world of rock and roll, and indeed the fact that they are is part of why Dylan is so important. Folk was its own thing, separate from rock, until Dylan came along. But Taylor and Mitchell aren't folk artists in the sense that pre-Dylan artists were.

I even wonder why singer song writers are included on ANY rock n roll lists, should we throw bob james on this list, he was doing that smooth jazz stuff which was an off set of funk

mrsamtotheg wrote:
way to exaggerate dylans influence , paul did not get fool on the hill influences from dylan ,with those simple lyrics, and that emphasis on melody (bob was never that intricate or focused on melody , he put his emphasis on lyrics)


I don't know what you mean by "emphasis on melody", but while I was mostly thinking of the lyrical influence there, I don't see anything about the melody that isn't compatible with, say, "It Ain't Me Babe" or something.

those simple ass lyrics were not inspired by dylan ,

mrsamtotheg wrote:
I am the walrus is dylan inspired for sure.
your ignorance is showing again, chuck was the rock n roll song writer , elvis put rock on the map , chuck was its song writer in the 50's


"Chuck was the rock n roll song writer"? What does that mean? What about Leiber and Stoller? Fats Domino and Dave Bartholomew? Little Richard? Buddy Holly? The Bryants? Pomus and Shuman?

I should have been clearer here, he is the definitive song writer of the 1950's


mrsamtotheg wrote:
what!?, do you play instruments have you ever written a song ,? a production trick is overdubbing ala les paul , or wall of sound ala phil spector, thats a songwriting ,


No, the instruments you choose and the way you use them has NOTHING to do with songwriting. Otherwise cover versions would use the same instruments as the originals. If a piano player is influenced by what Fats Domino did on "Blueberry Hill", is he being influenced by Fats and Dave Bartholemew or by Vincent Rose?

yes they do , for instance you tell me if someone played the drums exactly the way gadd played them on 50 ways to leave your lover, or if someone took jimmy pages riff for whole lotta love, then page and gadd cant sue for copyright infringment because , they were just instruments and the chords lyrics and vocal melody mattered, if I came out with a song tomorrow with both the riff from whole lotta love and the drums for 50 ways , would you say i got from someone( gadd and page) or is it a completely original piece done by me.



mrsamtotheg wrote:
you dont know enough about any of the 50' artists , I know what it is now, its ignorance and biased on your part, I will be arguing for the everly brothers next, I dont expect you to chime in that debate at all.


I know plenty about the 50s artists. You're making shit up.


you moron you think you do or read about them , how bout listening to the music, if you listened to chuck or at least enough ,you would know talking to you , was inspiration for i saw her standing there , and not little richard.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:47 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
you moron you think you do or read about them , how bout listening to the music, if you listened to chuck or at least enough ,you would know talking to you , was inspiration for i saw her standing there , and not little richard.


Brett's 100% right here, Sam, where do you think the falsetto "ooo" parts following the words "with another" came from? As well as the scream before the break, Chuck Berry never screamed. They were emulating Little Richard. And Richard even did a version of the song.

Image

You need to start showing Brett Alan some respect. He's a really knowledgable guy who has been in the business for many years, and I was the one who originally brought him here to the site. I wouldn't have done that if he was some know nothing schmuck.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
You're obviously picking and choosing to suit your point, picking two of Berry's biggest hits and comparing them to two middling-importance Dylan album tracks. Chuck has maybe ten songs or so that are widely recorded.


I would dispute this and say that it's more like 20, and also that the Chuck songs that are widely recorded (and performed) are recorded and performed more often than all but a couple of Dylan songs. Everybody and his grandmother recorded and performed "Roll Over Beethoven" and "Johnny B. Goode" and "Memphis" in their first bands. It's much more difficult for less experienced bands to do something like "Like A Rolling Stone."

Here's the Berry songs I see as widely recorded (and performed)

Maybellene
Thirty Days (sometimes done as Forty Days)
Roll Over Beethoven
Brown Eyed Handsome Man
Too Much Monkey Business
You Can't Catch Me
School Day
Rock And Roll Music
Sweet Little Sixteen
Reelin And Rockin
Johnny B. Goode
Around And Around
Carol
Run Rudolph Run
Little Queenie
Back In The USA
Memphis
Nadine
No Particular Place To Go
Promised Land (added in an edit)
You Never Can Tell

Maybe I'm not aware of versions of Dylan songs in recent years, but i find iot hard to believe that other than "Blowin' In The Wind" that he has songs that have been done as many times as some of these Berry's, especially if we are talking live performances as well as recordings. Every rock musician in history has probably performed JBG at some point in his stage act.


Last edited by Bruce on Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:59 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
brettalan wrote:
Again, guitar playing isn't songwriting. And "rockabilly" is more characteristic of Carl Perkins or Scotty Moore than Berry, although I certainly don't have a problem with saying that the guitar playing on "Get Back" is influenced by Chuck Berry.


moron , writing riffs and guitar intros etc, thats song writing, so I guess if i write a whole song on guitar with no lyrics I did not write a song , I am not a song writer ,right?.


Writing a riff or an instrumental melody line is songwriting, but the style or the choice of what instruments to use when is not. You're taking elements of Berry the performer and crediting them to his songwriting when they aren't. (And, for the record, I do agree that "Get Back" as a song was influenced by Berry's songwriting. But my point is that not every record with guitar playing that was influenced by Berry was influenced by Berry as a songwriter. Jimi Hendrix isn't all that high-ranking as a songwriter even though his guitar influence is huge.)

mrsamtotheg wrote:
That's from the liner notes to Paul McCartney's album Choba B CCCP. The notes were written by Beatles expert Roy Carr and obviously approved by McCartney himself. You think you know more about the subject than they do?

roy carr is an idiot than, listen to im talking to you , its obvious it came from chuck berry.


Of course I know "I'm Talking About You". And again I think you're confusing the musicianship with the songwriting. But again it comes down to the fact that not only do experts say "ISHST" was influenced mainly by Little Richard, so does the man who actually wrote the damn thing. I think I'm going to believe them over you.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
listen to too much monkey business sounds like subterrianian homesick blues, it was a forerunner to subterrian , bob dylan himself said so, wow you have never even heard berry apart from probaly 3 songs, you are not even qualified to rank him,


No shit, "Subterranean Homesick Blues" was influenced by Chuck Berry. We weren't even talking about that song, and I never denied that Dylan was influenced by Berry. Why you think that bringing up something we weren't talking about means that I don't know what I'm talking about is beyond me.

mrsamtotheg wrote:

And, yes, there's no doubt that Berry was the biggest influence on the Beach boys, and that Dylan's influence on them was minimal. No one's disputing that Berry is one of the most influential songwriters in rock--we're comparing two of the top songwriters to see who should be ranked higher. Again, do you really want me to start listing songwriters who were more influenced by Dylan? please list these guys ,list the ones that are not simultaneously influenced by chuck.


First off, I almost missed this because you started in the middle of a quoted line.

Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Steve Forbert, Donovan, Tom Petty, Roger McGuinn, all of those type of guys were very, very heavily influenced by Dylan. I'm not saying that Berry had absolutely zero influence on them, but not very much. Even Sam Cooke, who was of Berry's generation, was influenced by Dylan to write "A Change Is Gonna Come", but I don't hear much of Berry in his songwriting. Bands like U2 and The Alarm and more recent political bands were heavily influenced by Dylan as well. Does that help? Because I'm not sure what the point of this is. I never denied that Berry was a major influence as a songwriter, and if you're denying that Dylan is, then you don't have a leg to stand on.

mrsamtotheg wrote:

I even wonder why singer song writers are included on ANY rock n roll lists, should we throw bob james on this list, he was doing that smooth jazz stuff which was an off set of funk


That was rather random. Singer/songwriters are included on the lists because they're part of rock and roll. James Taylor may be mellow, but he was very heavily influenced by early rock--note how often he performs stuff from that era.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
way to exaggerate dylans influence , paul did not get fool on the hill influences from dylan ,with those simple lyrics, and that emphasis on melody (bob was never that intricate or focused on melody , he put his emphasis on lyrics)


I don't know what you mean by "emphasis on melody", but while I was mostly thinking of the lyrical influence there, I don't see anything about the melody that isn't compatible with, say, "It Ain't Me Babe" or something.

those simple ass lyrics were not inspired by dylan ,


Sure they were. They may not be as deep as, say, "Blowin' In The Wind", but Paul McCartney would never have been writing lyrics like that without those Dylan songs.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
I am the walrus is dylan inspired for sure.
your ignorance is showing again, chuck was the rock n roll song writer , elvis put rock on the map , chuck was its song writer in the 50's


"Chuck was the rock n roll song writer"? What does that mean? What about Leiber and Stoller? Fats Domino and Dave Bartholomew? Little Richard? Buddy Holly? The Bryants? Pomus and Shuman?

I should have been clearer here, he is the definitive song writer of the 1950's


I would say he's number two behind Leiber and Stoller.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
what!?, do you play instruments have you ever written a song ,? a production trick is overdubbing ala les paul , or wall of sound ala phil spector, thats a songwriting ,


No, the instruments you choose and the way you use them has NOTHING to do with songwriting. Otherwise cover versions would use the same instruments as the originals. If a piano player is influenced by what Fats Domino did on "Blueberry Hill", is he being influenced by Fats and Dave Bartholemew or by Vincent Rose?

yes they do , for instance you tell me if someone played the drums exactly the way gadd played them on 50 ways to leave your lover, or if someone took jimmy pages riff for whole lotta love, then page and gadd cant sue for copyright infringment because , they were just instruments and the chords lyrics and vocal melody mattered, if I came out with a song tomorrow with both the riff from whole lotta love and the drums for 50 ways , would you say i got from someone( gadd and page) or is it a completely original piece done by me.


Yes, if you play drums exactly the way Gadd played it on "50 Ways", then you got it from Gadd. WHO DIDN'T WRITE THE SONG. So thank you for proving my point.

Now, would you do the courtesy of answering my question? If a piano player imitates the way Fats Domino played on "Blueberry Hill", should credit for that go to Vincent Rose?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
brettalan wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
you dont know enough about any of the 50' artists , I know what it is now, its ignorance and biased on your part, I will be arguing for the everly brothers next, I dont expect you to chime in that debate at all.


I know plenty about the 50s artists. You're making shit up.


you moron you think you do or read about them , how bout listening to the music, if you listened to chuck or at least enough ,you would know talking to you , was inspiration for i saw her standing there , and not little richard.


Again, Paul McCartney thinks Little Richard was the inspiration, and that's good enough for me.

You know, when you can't even capitalize or punctuate your writing properly, you have no business calling anyone a moron. I'm trying to have a civil conversation here. There's no need for that, and I think I've earned enough respect around here that you only make yourself look bad by calling me names.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:12 am 
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Bruce wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
you moron you think you do or read about them , how bout listening to the music, if you listened to chuck or at least enough ,you would know talking to you , was inspiration for i saw her standing there , and not little richard.


Brett's 100% right here, Sam, where do you think the falsetto "ooo" parts following the words "with another" came from? As well as the scream before the break, Chuck Berry never screamed. They were emulating Little Richard. And Richard even did a version of the song.

Image

You need to start showing Brett Alan some respect. He's a really knowledgable guy who has been in the business for many years, and I was the one who originally brought him here to the site. I wouldn't have done that if he was some know nothing schmuck.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04u5XPp_-1k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsgWfAilIEM

sound awfully similar these are one of the few disagreements we are gonna have on this site, bruce, that and kobe bryants ranking on thee all time nba list

and you know what yes I retract the moron statement, and I apologize, I confused bret for the guy who was saying stop using the same thing over and over its clear that guy , was not trying to debate but be an ass, It was misdirected ,if I would have known he wasnt one of those AOR prog rock geeks the whole thing would have been different ha.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:32 am 
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Brett Alan wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
brettalan wrote:
Again, guitar playing isn't songwriting. And "rockabilly" is more characteristic of Carl Perkins or Scotty Moore than Berry, although I certainly don't have a problem with saying that the guitar playing on "Get Back" is influenced by Chuck Berry.


moron , writing riffs and guitar intros etc, thats song writing, so I guess if i write a whole song on guitar with no lyrics I did not write a song , I am not a song writer ,right?.


Writing a riff or an instrumental melody line is songwriting, but the style or the choice of what instruments to use when is not. You're taking elements of Berry the performer and crediting them to his songwriting when they aren't. (And, for the record, I do agree that "Get Back" as a song was influenced by Berry's songwriting. But my point is that not every record with guitar playing that was influenced by Berry was influenced by Berry as a songwriter. Jimi Hendrix isn't all that high-ranking as a songwriter even though his guitar influence is huge.)

mrsamtotheg wrote:
That's from the liner notes to Paul McCartney's album Choba B CCCP. The notes were written by Beatles expert Roy Carr and obviously approved by McCartney himself. You think you know more about the subject than they do?

roy carr is an idiot than, listen to im talking to you , its obvious it came from chuck berry.


Of course I know "I'm Talking About You". And again I think you're confusing the musicianship with the songwriting. But again it comes down to the fact that not only do experts say "ISHST" was influenced mainly by Little Richard, so does the man who actually wrote the damn thing. I think I'm going to believe them over you.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
listen to too much monkey business sounds like subterrianian homesick blues, it was a forerunner to subterrian , bob dylan himself said so, wow you have never even heard berry apart from probaly 3 songs, you are not even qualified to rank him,


No shit, "Subterranean Homesick Blues" was influenced by Chuck Berry. We weren't even talking about that song, and I never denied that Dylan was influenced by Berry. Why you think that bringing up something we weren't talking about means that I don't know what I'm talking about is beyond me.

mrsamtotheg wrote:

And, yes, there's no doubt that Berry was the biggest influence on the Beach boys, and that Dylan's influence on them was minimal. No one's disputing that Berry is one of the most influential songwriters in rock--we're comparing two of the top songwriters to see who should be ranked higher. Again, do you really want me to start listing songwriters who were more influenced by Dylan? please list these guys ,list the ones that are not simultaneously influenced by chuck.


First off, I almost missed this because you started in the middle of a quoted line.

Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Steve Forbert, Donovan, Tom Petty, Roger McGuinn, all of those type of guys were very, very heavily influenced by Dylan. I'm not saying that Berry had absolutely zero influence on them, but not very much. Even Sam Cooke, who was of Berry's generation, was influenced by Dylan to write "A Change Is Gonna Come", but I don't hear much of Berry in his songwriting. Bands like U2 and The Alarm and more recent political bands were heavily influenced by Dylan as well. Does that help? Because I'm not sure what the point of this is. I never denied that Berry was a major influence as a songwriter, and if you're denying that Dylan is, then you don't have a leg to stand on.

I know about dylans influence stevie did a cover of blowin in the wind.


mrsamtotheg wrote:

I even wonder why singer song writers are included on ANY rock n roll lists, should we throw bob james on this list, he was doing that smooth jazz stuff which was an off set of funk


That was rather random. Singer/songwriters are included on the lists because they're part of rock and roll. James Taylor may be mellow, but he was very heavily influenced by early rock--note how often he performs stuff from that era.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
way to exaggerate dylans influence , paul did not get fool on the hill influences from dylan ,with those simple lyrics, and that emphasis on melody (bob was never that intricate or focused on melody , he put his emphasis on lyrics)


I don't know what you mean by "emphasis on melody", but while I was mostly thinking of the lyrical influence there, I don't see anything about the melody that isn't compatible with, say, "It Ain't Me Babe" or something.

those simple ass lyrics were not inspired by dylan ,


Sure they were. They may not be as deep as, say, "Blowin' In The Wind", but Paul McCartney would never have been writing lyrics like that without those Dylan songs.

ok so paul would have never wrote that without those dylan songs ,then something like revolution would have not been written without the chuck berry intro and chucka chucka rhythm guitar, I am sayin the same thing you are saying.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
I am the walrus is dylan inspired for sure.
your ignorance is showing again, chuck was the rock n roll song writer , elvis put rock on the map , chuck was its song writer in the 50's


"Chuck was the rock n roll song writer"? What does that mean? What about Leiber and Stoller? Fats Domino and Dave Bartholomew? Little Richard? Buddy Holly? The Bryants? Pomus and Shuman?

I should have been clearer here, he is the definitive song writer of the 1950's


I would say he's number two behind Leiber and Stoller.




mrsamtotheg wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
what!?, do you play instruments have you ever written a song ,? a production trick is overdubbing ala les paul , or wall of sound ala phil spector, thats a songwriting ,


No, the instruments you choose and the way you use them has NOTHING to do with songwriting. Otherwise cover versions would use the same instruments as the originals. If a piano player is influenced by what Fats Domino did on "Blueberry Hill", is he being influenced by Fats and Dave Bartholemew or by Vincent Rose?

yes they do , for instance you tell me if someone played the drums exactly the way gadd played them on 50 ways to leave your lover, or if someone took jimmy pages riff for whole lotta love, then page and gadd cant sue for copyright infringment because , they were just instruments and the chords lyrics and vocal melody mattered, if I came out with a song tomorrow with both the riff from whole lotta love and the drums for 50 ways , would you say i got from someone( gadd and page) or is it a completely original piece done by me.


Yes, if you play drums exactly the way Gadd played it on "50 Ways", then you got it from Gadd. WHO DIDN'T WRITE THE SONG. So thank you for proving my point.

but you ignore the page thing, you know that song is credit plant and page , what did page contribute he didnt write the lyrics, and crazy train, was credit to ozzy randy rhoads the guitarist and bob daisley ( ironically the drummer was left out, and the only time ringo got credit on a beatles record where he wasnt the sole writer was what goes on for lyrics, so the gadd thing was a not a great example of what I am talking about)

Now, would you do the courtesy of answering my question? If a piano player imitates the way Fats Domino played on "Blueberry Hill", should credit for that go to Vincent Rose?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
brettalan wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
you dont know enough about any of the 50' artists , I know what it is now, its ignorance and biased on your part, I will be arguing for the everly brothers next, I dont expect you to chime in that debate at all.


I know plenty about the 50s artists. You're making shit up.


you moron you think you do or read about them , how bout listening to the music, if you listened to chuck or at least enough ,you would know talking to you , was inspiration for i saw her standing there , and not little richard.


Again, Paul McCartney thinks Little Richard was the inspiration, and that's good enough for me.

paul also said he lifted the bassline directly from talking about you , you can hear its in the same key and everything, but I am not gonna debate against little richard for chuck berry or any of that shit, hence why I ignored your lieber stoller thing, the last thing I want to do , is give the prog rock geeks reasons to discredit ,ignore and underrated the early guys .

You know, when you can't even capitalize or punctuate your writing properly, you have no business calling anyone a moron. I'm trying to have a civil conversation here. There's no need for that, and I think I've earned enough respect around here that you only make yourself look bad by calling me names.


ok , i dont give a damn about puncuation,I use the net like I would a cellphone when I text, its quick and easier , to say for example, I C U and U C me 2 , than to spell all that out, so at least your getting whole words and correct spelling from me most of the time.

and after the convo with bruce, I realize who you are now, I lumped you in with the prog rock metal idiots who been on my ass since day one ha,had I known you were a bruce guy , I would have treated you better my apologies, and uh I dont give a damn about my rep on here,its clear when I go against popular (sometimes not true) opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:04 am 
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Another tell here is that Paul sings "I saw Her Standing There" and Paul always sang the Little Richard songs, while John or George always sang the Chuck Berry songs.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:16 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Maybe I'm not aware of versions of Dylan songs in recent years, but i find iot hard to believe that other than "Blowin' In The Wind" that he has songs that have been done as many times as some of these Berry's, especially if we are talking live performances as well as recordings. Every rock musician in history has probably performed JBG at some point in his stage act.


No question that JBG is off-the-charts in terms of how often it's been performed and recorded. There are a couple others here--"Rock And Roll Music", "Roll Over Beethoven", maybe "Memphis" or "Run Rudolph Run" which have been done more than any Dylan song outside of "Blowin' In The Wind". But I'm thinking that most of the songs I've listed have been done more than, say, "No Particular Place To Go" or "You Can't Catch Me". I'm looking at a list on Amazon that says there are 375 known version of "Blowin'", 217 of "Don't Think Twice", 181 of "I Shall Be Released", and even 118 of "The Mighty Quinn".

The website Cover Me did a massive feature for Dylan's 70th birthday which featured covers of just about every song Dylan ever wrote. There are lots of covers by major artists of obscure Dylan songs (e.g. The Everly Brothers doing "Abandoned Love", the O'Jays doing "Emotionally Yours", Aaron Neville doing "Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight") and lots of dedicated albums of all Dylan songs, and that doesn't happen so much with Chuck Berry. I can't think of too many versions of his post-1964 material, for example. (I know a couple of covers of "Tulane Highway", including one by Joan Jett, and Rockpile did "Oh What A Thrill", but that's about all that comes to mind.)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:19 am 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
and after the convo with bruce, I realize who you are now, I lumped you in with the prog rock metal idiots who been on my ass since day one ha,had I known you were a bruce guy , I would have treated you better my apologies, and uh I dont give a damn about my rep on here,its clear when I go against popular (sometimes not true) opinions.


No problem, apology accepted. I'm all for going against popular opinion--look for example at the argument over the Black Eyed Peas album for the 2009 album list--but there's no need to be personally insulting about it.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:03 am 
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So, here's the comparison so far:

Popularity: ...?
Acclaim: Dylan
Influence: Berry

Honestly, the closest I think Berry comes in this, if ever, is a tie; Dylan easily wins the tiebreaker criteria, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Obviously I'm leaning a bit on Dylan, but I've heard all of Berry's big songs, and I don't see how he's even nearly as diverse as Dylan. Also, popularity's Dylan, right? I'm not so sure.


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