FM radio formatting? That's not going to sway anyone who knows about radio practices. Wikipedia? Written by fans of the artist (not just them, ANY artist). Look, I'm not ripping them at all, just trying to state their case, or lack thereof, using the Hall's rather shaky standards and history of what they seem to consider.

Backing that up would be the fact that Billboard named Chicago the 6th Greatest Adult Contemporary Artist of all-time, behind Elton John (R&R HOFer), Neil Diamond (HOF'er), Barbra Streisand, Barry Manilow and Kenny Rogers. I'm on record as saying Diamond was one of the worst selections for the HOF ever. John's cache in rock, musical impact in other words, has always been high, though his style definitely swung wildly between rock and pop. The others are as far away from rock as you can get. Chicago falls in the middle. They're not Streisand and Manilow by any means, but for all of their success over two decades it's interesting that rock itself wasn't altered that much by their presence and that's how they're being judged by the Hall and most of the general public it seems. I had nothing to do with that, did I?

I included them as a candidate, I prominently mentioned their success and explained how it is the perception of their style that is keeping them from being considered. All 100% accurate and without any subjectivity on my part. I wasn't criticizing them, I'm just stating their HOF Qualifications in a detached manner. The proof of their lack of respect from rock is pretty obvious: They are a major white group of the 70's who have huge hits. The Hall Of Fame isn't exactly reluctant to credit major white groups of the 70's with huge hits, as they are say major black groups of the 70's with huge hits, or white album oriented stars with less singles success (prog and metal). So why is it that they haven't been nominated? Answer: Their style. The very specific reason I stated here and in the write-up. I'm not passing judgement on their work myself, just stating the facts - they're not considered a strong candidate because they're viewed as an Adult Contemporary act. Period.



I didn't reward Carlos Santana, the Hall Of Fame did, and I'm assuming they did so not for his jazz-styles but mostly because he's a highly respected and well-known guitar god (unlike Kath who is far more obscure to most), something they are famously enamored with.



You've thought worse of me before. Actually, that might be the nicest thing you've said about me in two years.

What about Ray Stevens?

No pure novelty acts will ever be remotely considered by the Hall that I can see.

One of the purposes in the 150 Candidates is to try and present as wide a scope as possible in terms of eras, styles and so forth. A big part of the goal at DDD is drawing visitors, so the more diverse you are in naming artists the more people show up. That said, they all do meet those minimal standards (5) for qualifications. Stewart has three very important records - I Do Love You is one of the 60's greatest ballads. Sitting In The Park isn't far behind. Those two songs are held in very high esteem by listeners and other artists. Summertime was so radical that it too holds an important place in rock history. The 5 score though tells you that I don't think it's enough for him to get in, but a nomination would be okay. The comments about his singing and writing are just to flush out the background on him, since he's not as well known, that's all.

The Charms have two things going for them. Hearts Of Stone was one of rock's first breakthrough records to white audiences and therefore culturally that is of major importance. To reach #15 in 1954 on the Pop Charts is a big achievement when so few rock records by black artists did so and was arguably more impressive than having a #1 record years later. Timing is everything and helping rock find a new, massive, audience is seen as counting for something historically. The other thing is, doo wop, as a style, was a cornerstone of that entire era, but because most artists were on small labels and had little exposure and were mostly younger amatuers to begin with, artists in that style had trouble sustaining longer hitmaking careers in general. Therefore the Hall is more likely to consider groups that have a handful of instantly recognizable records from that field than they might be from another field a decade or two later. But I still only gave them a five which shows, again, I don't think they belong in by any means, only that they might earn a nomination.

Archibald is another borderline candidate who introduced one of rock's most vital records (Stack-A-Lee) in the arrangement it became known for through Lloyd Price's copy 8 years later, and his influence on New Orleans piano, and thus ALL of rock piano, since that's where the entire style took root and spread from, warrants a mention at least.

Tarplin wasn't technically a Miracle, which was a singing group, even though he performed with them and co-wrote many of their best songs. Technically therefore he should be in as a sideman, but like you I've heard he's getting in with them anyway. However, this is the HOF we're talking about and their history of doing things right is abysmal (they're not even letting those groups anywhere near the building for the ceremonies, god forbid they draw attention away from Steve Van Zandt inducting the Faces). When I see proof Tarplin's actually gotten inducted I'll take him off the sideman candidates section. It's not a big deal that he'll be listed there another three weeks.

Elvis is #13.

Looking at this album cover you would think he was a Miracle.

It has already been confirmed by the Rock Hall which members of The Miracles are being inducted. Here's the page:

Inducted members: Warren “Pete” Moore, Claudette Rogers Robinson, Bobby Rogers, Marvin Tarplin, Ronald White

http://rockhall.com/inductees/the-miracles/bio/

It just really sucks that Smokey Robinson will never be in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame as a "Miracle". Yes I know he's in already, but his trophy doesn't say The Miracles on it. Plus, the Rock Hall isn't inducting Smokey's replacement as a "Miracle" either (Billy Griffin - Love Machine).

Also, a lot of people would disagree with you about Tarplin not being a full member of The Miracles. Read the following link.

http://ourrockandrollhalloffame71305.yu ... e-Miracles

Have you seen the album covers and read the booklets?

Okay, here's the REAL reason why Chicago has not beem nominated.

FROM THE FEBRUARY 2011 RECORD COLLECTOR MAGAZINE INTERVIEW WITH CHICAGO'S ORIGINAL DRUMMER DANNY SERAPHINE

Why do you think critics never embraced Chicago?

They got us at first, but once we started having hits, that's when they started tearing us apart. Also, the band was really melodic and musical, not garage band-y, trashy, heavy rock. The critics didn't have that edginess to talk about. The critics gravitated towards edgier lyrics and music. There was also an ongoing feud with Rolling Stone magazine. It seemed everybody was getting on the cover and we were huge and they never put us on the cover. Jimmy Guercio, our producer/manager, was getting upset. He got into a feud with Jann Wenner, publisher of Rolling Stone, which kept us out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. The feud got out of hand and became nasty. Of course, we jumped on the bandwagon too and at every chance we could we said nasty things like, "We just sold four million records, and we wipe our ass with Rolling Stone." If it hurt us, we pretended it didn't, with bravado. It just got ridiculous, all the things that the magazine would write about us. I mean really, really bad reviews. But then you look at who they gave good reviews to. Where are a lot of these people today?

Make a case for Chicago's induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

I still think it has something to do with our feud with Rolling Stone magazine (the magazine's publisher Jann Wenner is on the Hall of Fame board). I don't think we've ever even been on the ballot. Chicago sold 130 million records, and maybe it's not all about sales, but our early records are beautifully crafted and great music. For me, it's a slap in the face to the fans and to the band too.

Yup, there are a number of rock acts on there - Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder too - but their body work was so diverse that their A/C stuff is seen as only a part of their legacy, not the bulk of it.

Since Whitney Houston is also there among the most successful artists on the Adult Contemporary Charts and is even MORE successful than Chicago on the Pop Singles Charts, and clearly had big pure rock hits with her early dance-themed records, would you therefore also say she deserves to be moved from the Outside Genre Candidates to the 150 Main Performer Candidates and if so, what score would you give her? It must be the same or higher than Chicago, right? If not, why on earth is she considered different than they are in your mind? AOR radio play and a fan-written Wikipedia bio that uses the word "rock" because the word itself carries such cache and importance compared to "pop" in most people's mind? It would have to be something more substantial than that, wouldn't it?

Just curious...

Houston only has 3-4 songs that could loosely be considered as part of rock as far as I'm concerned. Chicago has dozens. They have more rock songs in their catalog than Billy Joel too, if you ask me.

But this argument is moot, see my post about the REAL reason Chicago has not been nominated. Same old political bullshit with that jerkoff from Rolling Stone.

From The Miracles boxed set - "making Marv an honorary Miracle and his most important musical collaborator". Smokey always affectionally referred to him that way as well, but never undervalued his contributions, publicly or privately.

I obviously believed Tarplin should've been inducted in one form or another LONG ago. I'm glad he's getting in, I just wish they'd let the damn group sing and play together, along with the Comets, Crickets, et. all. This another example of the Hall fucking things up because of their own lack of criteria, breaking what criteria they do have (in the case of Smokey, inducting him alone when he was not yet eligible as a solo artist, for which he ALSO should be in, becoming another two time inductee, which now apparently he won't be) and then rectifying it at last, but doing so in a way that snubs the surviving members of the group by denying them the right to be appaluded publicly for their induction and their careers. The Hall Of Fame board is littered with the most disrespectful people in all of music. It would mean far more for someone like an aging Comet to be on stage getting a standing ovation than it will mean for Rod Stewart or Axl Rose (though both are narcisisstic enough to challenge that assertion). The point being, if you get inducted you deserve a moment in the spotlight, even if, or ESPECIALLY if, that induction came too late because of the Hall's own mistakes.

ARGHHH. Enough, I don't want to think about them more than I absolutely need to.

Rock Hall Does the Right Thing for Laura Nyro's Son

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerfriedm ... nyros-son/

I’ve been telling you here and on Showbiz411.com that the R0ck and Roll Hall of Fame wouldn’t invite or acknowledge the only child of Laura Nyro to their induction ceremony in Cleveland on April 14th. Well, good news, it’s a Passover-Easter miracle. Joel Peresman, president of the RRHOF Foundation, has informed Gil Bianchini that’s there’s been a change of heart. Gil and significant other (mother of his one year old twin girls), has been invited to sit with the stars and celebrities at the Cleveland event. He’ll also be called up to the stage, where Bette Midler will introduce him and give him his mother’s award.

It’s a happy ending. I don’t know all the details yet, but suspect that Bette Midler and Jann Wenner had a hand in making this happen. So, that’s great. Bianchini was young when his mother died. He’s a sweet who’s just now understanding how incredibly talented, important, and influential she was. As he told me recently, “I just thought of her as my mother.”

This may be a turning point for the RRHOF–doing the right thing. I hope so. For people who love rock and pop, and respect its history, we want the Foundation to be on the good side of things. Now maybe, too, Bianchini can get his mother’s personal effects from Nyro’s former executor, Patti Di Lauria, without having to go to court.

In the meantime, over the weekend, look up Laura Nyro’s many recordings, and the classic covers of her songs by the 5th Dimension, Three Dog Night, Blood Sweat and Tears, and Barbra Streisand among others. Hopefully some of them will show up this summer for the Lincoln Center outdoor concert tribute to Nyro that’s also being planned.

You never seem to answer questions that might trip you up...

The reason I gave Chicago a lower score than their popularity would seem to indicate they deserve is because of their intentional (but successful) move towards pure mainstream pop/adult contemporary material and the way in which that negatively affected their perception as to their rock qualifications. I also explained that both here and in the write-up as clearly as I could in limited space. Like I said, I'm not disparaging them personally, I've only tried to establish a consistent cut-off line for rock vs. pop and they have one foot in rock but lean mostly to the other side, as do Houston, Diamond, ABBA, Linda Ronstadt, Connie Francis, Paul Anka, Pat Boone and down the road Mariah Carey as well. Those are always going to be tough calls as to how to properly credit them stylistically and because they're so popular they're going to have huge support among their fans, but the rock world views them suspiciously, or with downright hostility. Keep in mind Chicago is the only one of them who made my 150 list, so I actually was more on their side so to speak, and they did so for the very reasons you stated, the amount of rock songs in their catalog. But still, the majority of their stuff was pop and that lowered the percentage of their output in rock vs. pop material and therefore lowered the qualification score accordingly. If I moved them to Outside Genre Candidates I could emphasize their jazz roots and pop skills in a more flowerly way if that'd help soothe anyone's hurt feelings, but when they're in the 150 I have to explain the lower score in a rock context, so it may make it seem like a slap in the face when it's not intended to be.

Interesting about the Wenner/Rolling Stone magazine feud, though keep in mind Seraphin is pissed they're not in and looking for a scapegoat to a degree. I don't dispute it though because Wenner is notorious for that kind of thing. I'm in the process of greatly expanding the R&R HOF pages with lots of topic oriented essays, stats, histories, etc., along with a year by year review, like I've done for each year's class since 2006, and one of the pages was going to be called "Politics, Grudges and Sinister Vendettas" to detail the concerted efforts by some to deny certain figures induction. It's a good premise but I'm still worried it comes off as too vindictive, since all the tales are "this high ranking official is against me", though there are a few very notable cases where Ertegun or Wenner was adament about denying someone nominations or inductions, largely in the side categories. I'm still not sure if I'll include that page, but I did start on it and some of the cases are very interesting to say the least.