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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
The reason I gave Chicago a lower score than their popularity would seem to indicate they deserve is because of their intentional (but successful) move towards pure mainstream pop/adult contemporary material


So, according to you, Chicago is even with Bananarama in hall of fame worthiness, and behind such luminaries as the Cars (7), Flying Burrito Brothers (6), Gap Band (6), Screamin' Jay Hawkins (6), MC5 (6), Motorhead (6), Soundgarden (6), Larry Williams (6), and Warren Zevon (6).

Tell us, who is a higher (5), Chicago or the Moody Blues?

And can you confirm that you see Warren Zevon. the Gap Band and Motorhead as each being more hall of fame worthy than either Chicago or the Moody Blues?

This may become significant later at your inevitable sanity hearing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:51 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Sampson wrote:
The reason I gave Chicago a lower score than their popularity would seem to indicate they deserve is because of their intentional (but successful) move towards pure mainstream pop/adult contemporary material


So, according to you, Chicago is even with Bananarama in hall of fame worthiness, and behind such luminaries as the Cars (7), Flying Burrito Brothers (6), Gap Band (6), Screamin' Jay Hawkins (6), MC5 (6), Motorhead (6), Soundgarden (6), Larry Williams (6), and Warren Zevon (6).

Tell us, who is a higher (5), Chicago or the Moody Blues?

And can you confirm that you see Warren Zevon. the Gap Band and Motorhead as each being more hall of fame worthy than either Chicago or the Moody Blues?

This may become significant later at your inevitable sanity hearing.


I'm only giving their credentials based on what they chose to do, don't get mad at me, get mad at them. If Chicago wanted to be Rock 'n' Roll luminaries they shouldn't have courted the soccer moms with "You're The Inspiration", a song which apparently Bruce sings to himself in the mirror before bed each night.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:57 pm 
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To Sampson

Have you been to Future Rock Legends? It's the next best thing to Digital Dream Door!

http://www.futurerocklegends.com/index.php

Also, what do you think the chances of Harry Belafonte being inducted into the Rock Hall are? Should he be inducted as an Early Influence or main performer? How would you rate The Surfaris and The Kingston Trio?


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
I've been emailing back and forth with Terry Stewart, the CEO of the hall of fame. He buys records from me. He says that the commitee to assess the older artists nominate Roy Brown and Wynonie Harris every year, but they never get put on the ballot by the main nominating committee. He is personally pushing every year for the Mills Brothers and Ravens as early infleunces, but that's going nowhere either. Then there's the Clovers and the Dominoes who are still waiting.

Then there's sht like the whole Dave Clark 5 fiasco a few years ago, and stories of doo wop groups being voted in, but not getting inducted because they want a more modern act that will draw some people to the dinner instead.

The biggest problem with things is that there is no transparency. They don't tell the public who is on these nominating commitees, and they don't tell the public how many votes each nominee got, or anything like that.

The whole thing has just become one big farce.

They get recommended for nomination by a special commitee every year. The commitee is supposed to evaluate old time artists who may have been overlooked, 50s and earlier artists. But every year the main nominating committee refuses to do anything with Wynonie and Roy. The way Terry Stewart was talking they have no chance of getting in under the current system.

Part of the problem is that unlike Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, and Robert Johnson, Wynonie and Roy were not big influences on any white guitar rock and rollers of the 60s. Their influences was directly to other black artists, like Jackie Wilson, who sings very similarly to Roy Brown, and James Brown, who recorded a couple Wynonie songs. Both were also influences on Elvis, but because none of their precious Eric Claptons or Keith Richards ever mentions Roy or Wynonie, these hippie schmucks who run the HOF are not really aware of their influence.

These 60s British guys were mainly guitar players, so they were not very influenced by 1940s R&B stars who were just frontmen. Elvis of course was influenced by those guys, but since their influence did not extend to 60s white rockers, it is discounted by these schmucks.

From "Fever," Susan Whitall's recently-published biography of Little Willie John.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Taupin-Cetera wrote:
THE BILLBOARD 200 ALBUMS CHART
Joel Whitburn Presents Top Pop Albums Seventh Edition 1955-2009
Page 951 - THE TOP 500 ARTISTS

http://www.amazon.com/Top-Pop-Albums-Se ... XVG7GB4D0V

THE TOP 10 ALL-TIME CHARTING ARTISTS ON THE BILLBOARD 200 ALBUMS CHART WHO ARE NOT IN THE ROCK AND ROLL HALL OF FAME

(01) 02. Frank Sinatra
(02) 04. Barbra Streisand
(03) 06. Johnny Mathis
(04) 14. Willie Nelson
(05) 15. Mantovani
(06) 18. Ray Conniff
(07) 22. George Strait
(08) 23. Jimmy Buffett
(09) 25. Chicago
(10) 29. Andy Williams

THE BILLBOARD 100 SINGLES CHART
Joel Whitburn Presents Billboard's Top Pop Singles 1955-2010 13th Edition
Page 1172 - THE TOP 500 ARTISTS

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/089820 ... d_i=507846

THE TOP 10 ALL-TIME CHARTING ARTISTS ON THE BILLBOARD 100 SINGLES CHART WHO ARE NOT IN THE ROCK AND ROLL HALL OF FAME

(01) 05. Mariah Carey
(02) 08. Janet Jackson
(03) 12. Pat Boone
(04) 13. Whitney Houston
(05) 20. Chicago
(06) 26. Connie Francis
(07) 29. Frank Sinatra
(08) 30. Paul Anka
(09) 32. Dionne Warwick
(10) 34. Olivia Newton-John


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Twitter Updates

Yup, we can imagine Kid Rock playing "November Rain". Kid Rock is a friend of the Rock Hall. He has inducted Aerosmith, Skynyrd and Seger. about 3 hours ago
So what is Kid Rock going to do at the Rock Hall Induction Ceremony? Part of an all-star tribute to the backing groups? Playing for GNR? about 3 hours ago
.@HBO scoops the @Rock_Hall by revealing LL Cool J, The Roots and Kid Rock will be involved in the Induction Ceremony. @questlove @LLCoolJ about 3 hours ago
Oh, and Kid Rock too. http://t.co/YL7cZikx #RockHall2012 about 3 hours ago
This HBO poster says the Roots and LL Cool J will be in the Induction Ceremony. (Beastie Boys tribute?) http://t.co/YL7cZikx #RockHall2012 about 3 hours ago
Let us know if you find this online. | 'Paul Shaffer's Rock Hall Spectacular' available for stations coast-to-coast: http://t.co/9xQq4lAp about 3 hours ago
So, when is the @Rock_Hall going to announce the tribute performances for @GunsNRoses and @BeastieBoys? #RockHall2012 about 4 hours ago


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:42 pm 
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Taupin-Cetera wrote:
Also, what do you think the chances of Harry Belafonte being inducted into the Rock Hall are?


None.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:47 pm 
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TC, if the issue about Chicago's candidacy is that much or most of their '80s music isn't rock, I think the following lists are more to the point. All are the '70s lists from Whitburn's guides. More to the point because even if their '80s music doesn't count as rock, the popularity of their '70s music alone seems to qualify them for the Hall. First, from the Top 40 Singles Guide:

1. Elton John
2. Paul McCartney
3. Bee Gees
4. Carpenters
5. Jackson 5
6. Chicago
7. Stevie Wonder
8. Three Dog Night
9. Olivia Newton-John
10. Neil Diamond

From the Top 100 Singles Guide:
1. Elton John
2. Paul McCartney
3. Bee Gees
4. Carpenters
5. Chicago
6. Jackson 5
7. James Brown
8. Stevie Wonder
9. Neil Diamond
10. Elvis Presley

From the Top 40 Albums Guide:
1. Elton John
2. Chicago
3. Paul McCartney
4. Bee Gees
5. Rolling Stones
6. Eagles
7. Fleetwood Mac
8. Led Zeppelin
9. Carole King
10. Bob Dylan

From the Top 200 Albums Guide:
1. Elvis Presley
2. Elton John
3. Barbra Streisand
4. Neil Diamond
5. Chicago
6. Rolling Stones
7. Bee Gees
8. John Denver
9. Paul McCartney
10. Bob Dylan


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Taupin-Cetera wrote:
To Sampson

Have you been to Future Rock Legends? It's the next best thing to Digital Dream Door!

http://www.futurerocklegends.com/index.php

Also, what do you think the chances of Harry Belafonte being inducted into the Rock Hall are? Should he be inducted as an Early Influence or main performer? How would you rate The Surfaris and The Kingston Trio?


Yeah, they swiped a ton of my stuff there, I don't appreciate that. Also their site is based on fans perspectives with the votes and such, so I don't take it seriously. Additionally their years of eligibilty are often wrong. Salt-n-Pepa they had as first being eligible this past year, when in fact they've been eligible for a few years. They have BDP as being eligible for the first time this upcoming fall, when actually they were eligible last year. There's a lot more, too numerous to mention. This stuff, first release dates, isn't exactly hard to find. It's one thing to get it wrong when just dropping a casual comment in a post, that's no big deal, but when you're having an entire section centered around when artists are eligible and then get so many wrong, it's just sloppy. I've checked the site out, but don't respect what they do very much.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Taupin-Cetera wrote:
Also, what do you think the chances of Harry Belafonte being inducted into the Rock Hall are? Should he be inducted as an Early Influence or main performer? How would you rate The Surfaris and The Kingston Trio?


Ditto to what Clash said - NONE. I like Belafonte too, but no chance in hell should he get in.

Surfaris might get a 1. Ron Wilson's drum work on Wipe Out was great and probably the most famous pure drum-fueled record in rock history, but while they had some other good stuff for that style, (Surfer Joe, Point Panic), they're insignificant in the big scheme of things. You might as well just open the door for any artist who had a single hit in rock if you put them in, and this is coming from someone who likes them. But get real.

The Kingston Trio - ZERO. Again, just because an artist is a big name and had success - but in a genre entirely outside rock - doesn't mean they should get in.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
This stuff, first release dates, isn't exactly hard to find. It's one thing to get it wrong when just dropping a casual comment in a post, that's no big deal, but when you're having an entire section centered around when artists are eligible and then get so many wrong, it's just sloppy. I've checked the site out, but don't respect what they do very much.


You think they are sloppy, you should see the complete list of corrections I made on the Rock Hall's site. I agreed to do the job for WAY too little of a fee. I ended up making about $5 an hour.

Here's an example:

THE MARVIN GAYE BIO SAID:

Gaye succeeded at Motown as a soul man who aimed his talent at a younger audience In 1962, he wrote and produced a series of hits for Mary Wells that included “You Beat Me to the Punch” and “Two Lovers.”

MY CORRECTION:

This is completely wrong. Those two Mary Wells hits were written and produced by Somkey Robinson, NOT Marvin Gaye.
------------------------------------


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
Taupin-Cetera wrote:
To Sampson

Have you been to Future Rock Legends? It's the next best thing to Digital Dream Door!

http://www.futurerocklegends.com/index.php

Also, what do you think the chances of Harry Belafonte being inducted into the Rock Hall are? Should he be inducted as an Early Influence or main performer? How would you rate The Surfaris and The Kingston Trio?


Yeah, they swiped a ton of my stuff there, I don't appreciate that. Also there site is based on fans perspectives with the votes and such, so I don't take it seriously. Additionally their years of eligibilty are often wrong. Salt-n-Pepa they had as first being eligible this past year, when in fact they've been eligible for a few years. They have BDP as being eligible for the first time this upcoming fall, when actually they were eligible last year. There's a lot more, too numerous to mention. This stuff, first release dates, isn't exactly hard to find. It's one thing to get it wrong when just dropping a casual comment in a post, that's no big deal, but when you're having an entire section centered around when artists are eligible and then get so many wrong, it's just sloppy. I've checked the site out, but don't respect what they do very much.


That pyramid they have is preposterous. Velvet Underground is ranked ABOVE Little Richard and Fats Domino. Talk about not having a clue.

In their song list they have "Only You" by the Platters in the wrong year.

One thing that's good, the users of the site have voted in the Wynonie Harris, Roy Brown, Chicago and the moody Blues into their version of the hall. They've also voted in all kinds of awful choices though, like John Peel and Nina Simone and Screamin' Jay Jackass.

These schmucks have the fucking Crew Cuts going in as in influence in 2020, and the Clovers not until 2021.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
Bruce wrote:


Chicago was always played on AOR stations from the beginning, unlike Neil Diamond, Abba and Whitney Houston. They were always considered to be rock. Records like "25 or 6 To 4" and "Make Me Smile" and "Beginnings"are staples of classic rock formats.


FM radio formatting? That's not going to sway anyone who knows about radio practices.


Actually, while it's clear that there are many artists who do not get played by classic rock/AOR radio that qualify as rock, I can't think of ANY artist who gets even a little play at those stations (at least once they abandoned freeform programming) who doesn't qualify as rock. To put it another way, the AOR world seems to be a subset of rock. At any rate, I think Chicago clearly are rock and clearly deserve to be in, regardless of the fact that some of their later singles are rather soft.

A couple of other thoughts from the thread:

Sampson wrote:
7 - An Eventual Induction Is Likely


That really should say An Eventual Induction Should Be Likely to be consistent.

And Ray Stevens isn't a pure novelty artist--he had hits that weren't novelty at all, such as "Mr. Businessman" and "Everything Is Beautiful". Having said that, though, he's really more of a country performer than a rock one, and there's no reason to think he'd ever merit consideration for the Rock Hall.

And I agree with you WRT the likes of Harry Belafonte (I'm a fan, too, but he doesn't belong) and the Kingston Trio.


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 Post subject: Re: The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame: 1986-Present
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Speaking of the Hall Of Fame, I hope everybody is going to participate in this project:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2896


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