As you said, there aren't many musical artists that have name recognition accross a wide spectrum of people. And that's why Ozzy Osbourne being how big he is makes it more impressive. Because as some people have already stated Metal is HUGE in Europe, South America and Japan. And I don't think Ozzy's popularity has much to do with the reality show. Maybe my mom knows him because of it, but not an average rock fan. Ozzy Osbourne must be one of the most recognized figures and Black Sabbath one of the most iconic rock bands for a worldwide audience. Worst case scenario some people don't know a Black Sabbath song, or maybe they don't know Ozzy, but they recognize the name Black Sabbath as a major band (it's something?) and I can garantee that an overwhelming amount of people aren't familiar with the band name Sly & The Family Stone (I am speaking for South American countries). I mean, that doesn't even ring a bell in any way. Black Sabbath might be regarded as a satanic band, dark freaks, blabla. But that is precisely cultural impact. They ARE recognizable in a way that S&TFS aren't. Because, let's face it, not every country had racial issues like the US so what S&TFS did in that sense didn't affect other countries. But what Black Sabbath did as creating a foundation for metal culture and the darkness/satanic vibe was something that was revolutionary in most (if not all) countries.

What makes Stevie Wonder and The Beach Boys greater than The Who?

All-Time European airplay Black Sabbath vs. Sly & The Family Stone

Top 20,000 as of 2011

67. Black Sabbath - Paranoid

11,453. Sly & The Family Stone - Family Affair
13,451. Sly & The Family Stone - If You Want Me To Stay

That's it.

Iron Man was #19,695 in 2010, but it's been bumped off.

http://www.apcchart.com/

Careful with that stuff. What's the source?

I cannot agree or allow Sly to win popularity. I don't doubt there wins in the other two categories, but giving Sly the greater win in popularity pretty much says this list is tied down to strictly NA and UK. You shouldn't even need to question the numbers, internationally Sabbath is far more popular than Sly, even though in the US, Sly may be more popular (which they are). Even in Asia Sabbath is still popular and an influence, especially considering the size of metal. I could probably wander all of Japan or China and it would take me a damn, damn long while to find someone who knows Sly and the Family Stone. Sabbath? Probably much quicker.

They were each much more popular for one thing. The Who never had huge hits singles like both of them did, and they both also beat The Who in album sales. Stevie and the Beach Boys appeal to a much wider cross section of people too. People who listen to Light-FM type stations and adult stations like many Stevie and Beach Boys songs. The Who don't have any mainstream pop songs like that. Other thana couple of songs the Who only fit one format, Classic rock. That's it.

"Can't allow"??? You don't allow anything, nobody does, the criteria determines it. We just have come to a minor disagreement as to how to properly weigh Commercial Impact between two very close competitors who each excel in this area differently. My argument was that at no point in their career was Sabbath ever as popular as Sly at their peak. Each had similiar length peaks at roughly the same time and Sly had far more success in singles, clearly, that's not even disputed, and they had bigger albums as well. Lastly, their catalog (meaning their biggest songs) is more widely known than Sabbath's, as Sabbath has strong appeal to metal fanbases, whereas Sly reached across stylistic boundaries. Really only two Sabbath songs are recognizable outside their core fanbase, whereas it's far more that are casually familiar to mainstream listeners for Sly. Add in the sheer number of individual songs of Sly's that have appeared on multi-artist compilations and that are regularly played on a multitude of radio formats (not to mention sampling, if you even want to stretch it that far) and it's certainly fair to say that Sly's music - over time - had more commercial impact in a wider variety of forms (singles, albums, airplay, etc.). You can quibble with the degree of each of these, but the statements are pretty much backed up.

But that's only one side. The other side, which I never said wasn't just as valid, are the points others bring up. Sabbath has greater popularity in the European market, the Far East and other areas of the globe. Their longer career resulted in a greater total number in album sales, simply because they had a far greater number of albums to sell (by about a three to one ratio). These too are irrefutably backed up.

Both views have equal merit because both are based on fact.

So the question is, how exactly is Commercial Impact defined for the sake of the list? Obviously it's not strictly one way or the other, but a combination of them. When figuring out Commercial Impact for ANY artist all sorts of things factor in - career length, distribution, how many chart placements there were (much harder to make a chart when there's not as many spaces available obviously), so it's never a case of simply adding up strict numbers, be it how many hits, how many album sales, etc. It's both context and variables and the balance of all of these issues is what is in question. I'm not saying definitively one is right and the other is wrong, but rather trying to figure out how the disparate methods are going to be dealt with to come up with a fair and accurate reflection of every artist's commercial impact?

So with that said, I don't see a clear-cut resolution. Sabbath's total worldwide album sales vs. Sly's far bigger song and better album placements in a shorter career. Six of one, half dozen of the other. That's the debate.

I can make a far better argument for Stevie to be #4 overall and the Beach Boys #5 than I could make for the Who to make the Top 10 or 15. Their popularity is really far behind. Wonder and The Beach Boys have over 60 hits apiece, the Who don't even have half that. In albums that reached the Top Thirty, The Beach Boys have twenty, Wonder has 16, The Who have 12. Furthermore, to add era-specific context, The Beach Boys and Wonder both had the start of their careers in the pre-album oriented years as well, yet both still cracked the Top Ten during that time when it was much harder for rock artists to do so than only a few years later when The Who came along. Also, worldwide, since I know someone will bring it up, The Beach Boys had number one hits in countries with songs that didn't even go Top TEN in America, so they aren't lacking there at all. Stevie's got 51 British hits, again including huge hits that didn't even chart in the U.S., meaning they weren't simply piggy-backing his homegrown success. The Who, in their own country, have less than thirty hits by comparison. There's virtually nothing the Who can do to make up for that huge disparity, especially since the other areas aren't weak at all for the others. The influence of all three are close, I have it BB, Who, Wonder on the DDD list. Musical Impact - again all three do well, but the Beach Boys and Wonder are two of the elite of all time here, completely off the charts and just a clear notch above the Who. They do very well, but not nearly as well as the other two. Cultural Impact same thing. Stevie wins it, Beach Boys and Who are lower down.

The Who aren't sniffing the Top Ten if this is done accurately. There's just a logjam up there of major artists with much deeper resumes. The Who don't do poorly in anything, but there's no area that they crush in versus the all-time greats, and to edge ahead you kinda need at least one area that you soar above the rest you're competing against. Their best area is influence but there's at least fifteen artists better than them there and another fifteen that are really close. That means whoever does better elsewhere is going to win and in this case it's plainly obvious both the Beach Boys and Wonder do significantly better in Commercial Impact and Musical Impact. The contest is over right there, but the final nail in the Who's coffin is figuring in the Beach Boys take influence, while Wonder takes Cultural, which all adds up to the Who on the outside looking in.

I know you don't want to hear it, my friend, but Top Twenty over a 65 year period is a helluva accomplishment. Gerry & The Pacemakers would take that in a heartbeat if that's any consolation.

Here's where I ranked the rock artists on the "300 Greatest Popular Artists" list. Keep in mind the rankings would change some for a "Rock" list.

1. Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
5. Michael Jackson / Jackson 5
7. James Brown
9. Bob Dylan
12. Ray Charles
13. Chuck Berry
15. Aretha Franklin
20. Rolling Stones
23. Stevie Wonder
24. Beach Boys
28. Little Richard
29. Louis Jordan
32. Bob Marley and the Wailers
36. Led Zeppelin
37. Marvin Gaye
39. Jimi Hendrix
44. Sam Cooke
45. Bruce Springsteen
46. Queen
47. Abba
48. Pink Floyd
49. Buddy Holly and the Crickets
50. Elton John
51. Temptations
52. Drifters / Clyde McPhatter / Ben E. King
53. Prince
54. The Who
56. Diana Ross and the Supremes
57. Fats Domino
58. Otis Redding
59. Madonna
60. U2
61. Smokey Robinson and the Miracles
63. Eric Clapton (solo and with bands)
64. Mariah Carey
70. Eagles
73. Run-D.M.C.
74. Public Enemy
78. Big Joe Turner
83. Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel
84. Bee Gees
85. John Fogerty & Creedence Clearwater Revival
86. Jerry Lee Lewis
87. Bo Diddley
90. Everly Brothers
93. R. Kelly
94. Jay-Z
97. Rod Stewart
98. David Bowie

The Osbournes reality TV show gave Ozzy (and inadvertently Black Sabbath) wider international recognition through the MTV generation; the show was a smart move on his part.

Not only was it a huge success for MTV, but it also won an Emmy and had an international airing, from MTV Latin America to MTV India to MTV Brasil. It also propelled Sharon Osbourne to even greater heights as a celebrity star.

Ozzy's name reached wider recognition that hip-hop artists such as Trick Daddy were sampling his music in its wake (Trick's "Let's Go" samples "Crazy Train" and was a worldwide hit).



I can speak through personal firsthand experience vacationing in Brazil for one summer and trying to soak up all the musical scenes and the musical history there (as I've done with other countries I lived in/visited). And you're right, metal is big over there, even in places like Argentina and other areas where "Rock En Espanol" is huge. But that's not to say funk/hip-hop didn't have a place in Brazil. One style clearly influenced by hip-hop/funk music that I picked up on was "funk carioca."

Yes, definitely among the most sampled artists of all time, but it's not like Black Sabbath haven't been sampled too, although not to the Family Stone's degree.

Kanye West, Fugees, Busta Rhymes, Fatboy Slim, Beck, Insane Clown Posse, Enigma, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beatnuts, Jungle Brothers, Alice In Chains, Ice-T, Beastie Boys, Butthole Surfers, Ultramagnetic MC's, Staind, Eminem, OutKast, Cypress Hill, Young MC, Vanilla Ice, etc., etc., have all sampled their work.



Sly vs Sabbath is a case-by-case basis because there are all sorts of other variables.

A long(er) career does not equate great success. Also, you can have a short career (like ABBA's and The Beatles') and still trump virtually everyone else in popularity. You can be music-changing, decades-experiencing as Miles Davis and still not be able to be a cash cow like Elton John.

Look at the long career of Nana Mouskouri. Most Americans wouldn't know who she was and yet she was a huge seller around the world.

Sampson, I agree with you in The Who-Wonder-BB case.
But what you think about Aretha-MJ? Them could belongs in the top 10?

You'd find someone who knows Sabbath quicker? Why the hell would that matter?! You'd probably sooner find someone who could tell you who Black Sabbath was than who Fats Domino was, but Fats is still more influential and more popular.

I could definitely see MJ above Hendrix, but I don't think he belongs above Fats. Maybe he does, but I think its atleast really close between those two.

Aretha might just squeeze into the top 10, but right now I think she probably belongs at 11, once the Who have been moved down a little bit.

I think the order that they're in now makes the most sense to me. Ray Charles does the best in influence, and probably also cultural impact. I'm not sure if he wins musical impact, but I know he's a giant there, and he atleast matches Stevie & BB. I'm sure he doesn't do nearly as well as the other two in popularity, but his influence and cultural impact leed is probably enough to warrant his place above them. As for Stevie and Beach Boys, from what I gather Stevie is ahead on popularity, BB are ahead in influence by a little bit, and musical impact is close. I think Sampson referred to Stevie as having more cultural impact than the Beach Boys, so I'll go with that, but I'd say its hardly a blowout. So in short, I'd have those three ranked as
7.Ray Charles
8.Stevie Wonder
9.Beach Boys

then maybe...
10.Led Zeppelin
11.Aretha Franklin
12.The Who
13. Fats Domino
or something like that? I think that either Aretha or Zep should be the highest of the bunch, but I'm not sure where the other 2 fit in.