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| Author: | Sampson [ Sat May 12, 2012 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Eric Wood wrote: Let's do this. Eric Clapton Aerosmith Radiohead AC/DC The Eagles Fleetwood Mac Eric B. and Rakim Al Green Crosby, Stills, & Nash (& Young) The Clash Bob Marley & the Wailers Joni Mitchell Janet Jackson The Clovers Roy Brown Rank 'em, 1-15. Specifically, pull out the artists which are clearly the "greatest", which are clearly the "least great", and which groups are pretty similar. I mean, if you can't at least convincingly put those artists in general groups, you can't really come in and give an argument for one specific artist. In most responses to this question Janet Jackson is getting no respect. She's more popular than all of them. She has the fourth most Top Ten hits EVER, behind just Elvis Presley, Madonna and The Beatles. She has ten #1 hits which is more than the other 14 artists listed there combined. Her influence is enormous as she was the one who popularized the new jack swing style, which brought the marriage of hip-hop beats and sung melodies to the mainstream and altered the entire course of not just black rock music, but also many imitative the white styles. She may lag behind the others in musical impact, though her stage show was always very well respected, but it's not enough to put her behind any of them. You can make arguments for The Eagles, Marley and the Clovers maybe, toss in Fleetwood Mac, if you want, but Janet probably beats them all, especially when the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac's best areas are popularity and she's better than they are there. The other thing is, I don't get how Clapton's even considered remotely high among these 15 names. As a NAME, yeah, but breaking it down almost all of his influence and musical impact comes from his work in the 60's within groups, not as a solo artist. Knock those down to their proper levels and even though he was consistently popular, it's not to the level as many of the others. The ones whose popularity is lower have far more influence and impact (Eric B. & Rakim, Roy Brown, Marley, The Clash). I'd have Clapton as one of the two or three lowest of these artists and don't think he's sniffing the Top 100 as a solo artist. |
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| Author: | gminer [ Sat May 12, 2012 2:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Echoes wrote: Then acclaim: Ranking at DDD: #15 Ranking at Rolling Stone: #3 Q - 100 greatest songs of all time: #25 VH1 100 greatest rock songs: #10 Acclaimed Music: #30 ... an interesting approach to popularity or lasting popularity would be to do a comparison on the number of views these classic tunes receive on Youtube ... it is a rather unbiased way to see what folks around the world are choosing to listen to or view ... certainly not completely scientific but it shows whether there is a lasting popularity / longevity to a piece of music as time passes along if you pick the most popular of the artists versions ... Take care Imagine - 9,312,794 views Layla - 27,861,475 views |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
gminer, We have to note all the variables when we take Youtube into account, such as the multiple versions of the same song. For example, Lennon's recording of "Imagine" is featured on Youtube more than once. |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Echoes wrote: J.B. Trance wrote: Echoes, What about Earth, Wind & Fire vs Lennon solo? Vs Zappa? I really like Zappa but IMO he is not worthy of a top 100. I have him around The White Stripes. In the case of Earth, Wind & Fire they could be around the 90th place, they certainly are greater than Rod Stewart or Janis Joplin. In fact, I think that Earth, Wind & Fire = Chicago. Actually, I'm quite impressed, Echoes. Yes, Earth, Wind & Fire are definitely Top 100-worthy. |
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| Author: | gminer [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
J.B. Trance wrote: gminer, We have to note all the variables when we take Youtube into account, such as the multiple versions of the same song. For example, Lennon's recording of "Imagine" is featured on Youtube more than once. ... that is the same with Layla ... but you will see if multiple versions added together the spread does not change by any significant amount ... I would suggest looking at the most popular version is the one over time most folks gravitate towards .... it would be like looking at Smoke on the Water live has over 22 million views v/s 3 million or so for the studio version ... the numbers simply suggest the more popular version and no doubt a good portion of those who viewed the studio probably gravitated to the live version .... Child in Time by Deep Purple is just the opposite with over 13 million views on the studio version v/s 3 million or so for live ... I would suggest this simply demonstrates an unofficial vote of the best versions by those looking to view a specific song ... Take care |
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| Author: | Eric Wood [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Alright. First of all, I am succumbing to musical impact here because otherwise there's no point in comparing notes at all when everyone else is using it. Also I wrote this before seeing Sampson's above post. Bob Marley I agree tops this group. But I'm curious here... Sampson has Marley 73rd in terms of rock influence; Bruce has him 32nd in all of pop music; the rock list currently has him at 35th. Those don't line up. The Clovers Fleetwood Mac Janet Jackson Fleetwood and Janet I have high because I think they at least have a little influence outside their popularity; enough to separate them from the Eagles, Aerosmith and AC/DC who are a little lower. The Clovers are well-rounded in the criteria within their era; the one thing holding them back is the pop success that Fats Domino and the Drifters went on to have. But they were as popular as anyone and as culturally important as anyone and as respected among their peers as anyone between Louis Jordan and Elvis. I've heard a bunch of things credited to them in influence, but that's a little harder to peg without listening to that whole 8-10 year period totally chronologically. They also helped establish Atlantic records and I'm not sure where in the criteria Brian will put that. The Clash Eric B. and Rakim These artists stack up pretty well. Of course the Clash beats Eric B. and Rakim in popularity by 5:1 or 10:1. But that lead is minimized because other artists, including artists in this group, beat the Clash in popularity by 5:1 or 10:1. The strength in the criteria for both of them are influence and musical impact. Both have clearcut #1 status in a particular regard for their musical impact (Clash among all punk artists, Rakim among all MCs). Both are influential, although the Clash were more about a remixing of older styles and bringing different existing styles to the forefront, and Rakim was one important step in a long line of MCs and is already getting special credit for his high esteem in musical impact. The Eagles Aerosmith AC/DC Joni Mitchell The top three are mainly popularity placements, Mitchell is probably well-rounded enough to catch up. Eric Clapton Radiohead Al Green CSNY More about name recognition than anything. Not a lot separates these artists from some of the names recently highlighted off the back of the list like Green Day, EWF and RHCP. |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
gminer wrote: J.B. Trance wrote: gminer, We have to note all the variables when we take Youtube into account, such as the multiple versions of the same song. For example, Lennon's recording of "Imagine" is featured on Youtube more than once. ... that is the same with Layla ... but you will see if multiple versions added together the spread does not change by any significant amount ... I would suggest looking at the most popular version is the one over time most folks gravitate towards .... it would be like looking at Smoke on the Water live has over 22 million views v/s 3 million or so for the studio version ... the numbers simply suggest the more popular version and no doubt a good portion of those who viewed the studio probably gravitated to the live version .... Child in Time by Deep Purple is just the opposite with over 13 million views on the studio version v/s 3 million or so for live ... I would suggest this simply demonstrates an unofficial vote of the best versions by those looking to view a specific song ... Take care Yes, "Imagine" was just one example I provided. This goes beyond "Layla" and "Imagine." Whether live or not or whatever format, it's still the same song, so we still have to look at the other variables to get a clearer picture. |
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| Author: | ClashWho [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
J.B. Trance wrote: Whether live or not or whatever format, it's still the same song, so we still have to look at the other variables to get a clearer picture. Sometimes it's impossible to get a clearer picture. The Who song with the most views on Youtube was a 1979 live performance of "Behind Blue Eyes". Who would have guessed that? It has since been deleted, so if someone were to do that sort of research today, they would have no idea. For all we know, there could have been another John Lennon "Imagine" upload with 15 million views that was deleted a year ago. |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
ClashWho wrote: J.B. Trance wrote: Whether live or not or whatever format, it's still the same song, so we still have to look at the other variables to get a clearer picture. Sometimes it's impossible to get a clearer picture. The Who song with the most views on Youtube was a 1979 live performance of "Behind Blue Eyes". Who would have guessed that? It has since been deleted, so if someone were to do that sort of research today, they would have no idea. For all we know, there could have been another John Lennon "Imagine" upload with 15 million views that was deleted a year ago. Which is my point; we have to look at the other variables. It's not always easy an easy thing to quantify. |
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| Author: | Bruno [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Compare only one song will never decide which artist is greater. Especially in the case of "Imagine" and "Tears in Heaven", which belong to the elite. |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 3:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
I agree. I hope Echoes realizes this. |
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| Author: | Eric Wood [ Sat May 12, 2012 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Sampson wrote: In most responses to this question Janet Jackson is getting no respect. She's more popular than all of them. She has the fourth most Top Ten hits EVER, behind just Elvis Presley, Madonna and The Beatles. She has ten #1 hits which is more than the other 14 artists listed there combined. Her influence is enormous as she was the one who popularized the new jack swing style, which brought the marriage of hip-hop beats and sung melodies to the mainstream and altered the entire course of not just black rock music, but also many imitative the white styles. She may lag behind the others in musical impact, though her stage show was always very well respected, but it's not enough to put her behind any of them. You can make arguments for The Eagles, Marley and the Clovers maybe, toss in Fleetwood Mac, if you want, but Janet probably beats them all, especially when the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac's best areas are popularity and she's better than they are there. The other thing is, I don't get how Clapton's even considered remotely high among these 15 names. As a NAME, yeah, but breaking it down almost all of his influence and musical impact comes from his work in the 60's within groups, not as a solo artist. Knock those down to their proper levels and even though he was consistently popular, it's not to the level as many of the others. The ones whose popularity is lower have far more influence and impact (Eric B. & Rakim, Roy Brown, Marley, The Clash). I'd have Clapton as one of the two or three lowest of these artists and don't think he's sniffing the Top 100 as a solo artist. For Janet I wouldn't consider her #1 hits as strongly due to her era. The album was taking over and album sales have to be looked at primarily at that point; singles were used to manipulate radio and market the album. For example Janet had #1 hits from the same album in three consecutive years, as the single releases were spaced out to promote the album over a long period. And by the end of Janet's peak era, the hot 100 briefly became a total joke when "Iris" and "Don't Speak" and a few others didn't even get token single releases and so were disqualified despite being the obvious #1 songs for long periods. In terms of album sales, however, she stacks up completely against all the other popular giants on the list and the #1 hits still have to be at minimum a tiebreaker, but I wouldn't look at her as dominantly popular over the others there with 9-digit album sales, because of dominance on the singles charts of the 80s/90s. For Marley, listing him with those other three in terms of popularity is totally inaccurate due to Marley's catalog sales, specifically of Legend. The Legend collection is one of the top catalog sellers of all time, selling 10 million copies in the US since 1991 when they started the soundscan tracking. That puts it above anything by any pre-91 artist except the Beatles "1" collection. Of course that doesn't put him on a level with many of the others I put in that grouping, but it does put him well above the three you named. |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 4:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Eric Wood wrote: Bob Marley I agree tops this group. But I'm curious here... Sampson has Marley 73rd in terms of rock influence; Bruce has him 32nd in all of pop music; the rock list currently has him at 35th. Those don't line up. A reflection of different criteria used and how one weighs each. Quote: Fleetwood and Janet I have high because I think they at least have a little influence outside their popularity Janet Jackson actually has a good amount of influence. She played a significant role in the creation of "modern"/urban R&B of the 1980s with her brand of R&B pop and hip-hop influences. Quote: (Clash among all punk artists, Rakim among all MCs) Eric B. is significant in that he is actually one of the most celebrated DJs in hip-hop history and has big influence/impact to his name alone, although Rakim is the more important of the the two. |
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| Author: | Brian [ Sat May 12, 2012 4:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
I moved Clapton down 7 positions and rearranged postions 66-90. The latter move mostly amounted to moving 2pac, The Beastie Boys, Eminem, The Platters, The Clovers, Janet Jackson, Jay-Z, Jackie Wilson, Ruth Brown, and Donna Summer ahead of the artists who are now immediately behind them. Some of the artists who moved up will eventually move up more, but what I want to focus on first is who to add to the top 100 and who to drop. In case it needs to be clarified, the Clapton listing includes Derek & the Dominos, but not anything from Clapton's '60s bands. I was originally planning on looking for one artist to add to the top 100 to replace the Sex Pistols, but as it now appears that there is likely more than one artist that should be added to the top 100, I'm now looking to do so. The way I want to approach this is to determine who are the most deserving artists not in the top 100 and who are the least deserving artists who are in the top 100. I prefer this approach to picking an artist outside the top 100 and arguing that artist is more deserving than one within the top 100, because that approach doesn't tell you much. Even if the artist that is outside is more deserving than one that is inside, it could be that both should be in the top 100, or neither should be. Here is the current 88-100: 88. The Shirelles 89. The Allman Brothers Band 90. The Ramones 91. Frank Zappa 92. Janis Joplin 93. Chicago 94. Yes 95. The Band 96. N.W.A. 97. Talking Heads 98. The Velvet Underground 99. Billy Joel 100. The Sex Pistols Any thoughts on the order of these 13 artists? And would anyone like to make a case for moving an artist from higher up down into this range? |
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| Author: | J.B. Trance [ Sat May 12, 2012 4:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Eric Wood wrote: Sampson wrote: In most responses to this question Janet Jackson is getting no respect. She's more popular than all of them. She has the fourth most Top Ten hits EVER, behind just Elvis Presley, Madonna and The Beatles. She has ten #1 hits which is more than the other 14 artists listed there combined. Her influence is enormous as she was the one who popularized the new jack swing style, which brought the marriage of hip-hop beats and sung melodies to the mainstream and altered the entire course of not just black rock music, but also many imitative the white styles. She may lag behind the others in musical impact, though her stage show was always very well respected, but it's not enough to put her behind any of them. You can make arguments for The Eagles, Marley and the Clovers maybe, toss in Fleetwood Mac, if you want, but Janet probably beats them all, especially when the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac's best areas are popularity and she's better than they are there. The other thing is, I don't get how Clapton's even considered remotely high among these 15 names. As a NAME, yeah, but breaking it down almost all of his influence and musical impact comes from his work in the 60's within groups, not as a solo artist. Knock those down to their proper levels and even though he was consistently popular, it's not to the level as many of the others. The ones whose popularity is lower have far more influence and impact (Eric B. & Rakim, Roy Brown, Marley, The Clash). I'd have Clapton as one of the two or three lowest of these artists and don't think he's sniffing the Top 100 as a solo artist. For Janet I wouldn't consider her #1 hits as strongly due to her era. The album was taking over and album sales have to be looked at primarily at that point; singles were used to manipulate radio and market the album. For example Janet had #1 hits from the same album in three consecutive years, as the single releases were spaced out to promote the album over a long period. And by the end of Janet's peak era, the hot 100 briefly became a total joke when "Iris" and "Don't Speak" and a few others didn't even get token single releases and so were disqualified despite being the obvious #1 songs for long periods. In terms of album sales, however, she stacks up completely against all the other popular giants on the list and the #1 hits still have to be at minimum a tiebreaker, but I wouldn't look at her as dominantly popular over the others there with 9-digit album sales, because of dominance on the singles charts of the 80s/90s. For Marley, listing him with those other three in terms of popularity is totally inaccurate due to Marley's catalog sales, specifically of Legend. The Legend collection is one of the top catalog sellers of all time, selling 10 million copies in the US since 1991 when they started the soundscan tracking. That puts it above anything by any pre-91 artist except the Beatles "1" collection. Of course that doesn't put him on a level with many of the others I put in that grouping, but it does put him well above the three you named. Sampson is right. Janet Jackson played a very important role in modern R&B music, modern "pop" music in general, and even hip-hop to an extent as far as people from Mary J. Blige and her followers are concerned. She was also an important fixture on video outlets such as MTV and VH1 at a time when there weren't so many black faces on those channels. |
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