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| Author: | Echoes [ Wed May 16, 2012 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Bruce wrote: ClashWho wrote: Bruce wrote: ClashWho wrote: Such sales claims should be taken with large grains of salt. It's clear that Abba is one of the largest selling recording artists of all time. They don't have that large a discography. I find it hard to believe they've sold that may hits collections. Bruce wrote: They were the biggest act in the world for several years, huge in dozens of countries. They turned down a billion dollars to tour a few years ago. Reportedly. I'm skeptical. They did not have a ton of original albums, but they had dozens of singles and lots of collection albums. http://rateyourmusic.com/artist/abba As someone else said, they had 20 #1 singles in multiple countries. Greatest Hits was rush-released in Scandinavia in November 1975 to counter expected import sales of similar collections released by licencees in Europe, such as French Disques Vogue's ABBA's Greatest Hits and West German Polydor's The Best Of ABBA. The album was the best selling album of 1976 in the UK, the second best selling album of the 1970s in the UK, and is the second-best selling album in the UK for ABBA,[2] staying in the charts for 130 weeks.[3] The album was certified Platinum in the US.[4] Its compilation successor was Greatest Hits Vol. 2, released in 1979, and this album was later referred to as "Greatest Hits Volume 1".[3] The tracks, taken from ABBA’s first three studio albums, had all but one been single sides somewhere in the world. Despite the title of the compilation, only half of the tracks had actually charted as hit singles in major territories. One track, "Dance (While The Music Still Goes On)," was never released as a single and thus was never certified a hit in any territory or country. "Waterloo," "SOS," "Mamma Mia" and, later, "Fernando" were Top 10 hits in the UK and several other countries, though only the first of these was a Top 10 hit in the US. Other arguable hits in multiple territories included "I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do, I Do" (a Top 10 hit in several countries, a number one in Australia, and a Top 20 hit in the US, though barely cracking the Top 40 in the UK), "Honey Honey" (a Top 20 hit in several countries and a Top 30 hit in the US), "Hasta Mañana" (a Top 10 hit in South Africa and New Zealand and a Top 20 hit in Australia), and "So Long" (a Top 20 hit in Germany and a Top 10 hit in Sweden). Ironically, in Australia, where several of the tracks had reached Number One, the release of Greatest Hits was beaten to the market by the local compilation The Best Of ABBA, precluding a release there for years. Nevertheless, the official greatest hits package was an enormous success. Even Rolling Stone, often one of ABBA's harshest critics in the US, declared in the years shortly after its release, "Anyone who could listen to this record five times and not wind up humming half the songs is an android." ABBA has sold over 370 million records worldwide and still sell millions of records a year,[1][2] which makes them one of the best-selling music artists. ABBA was the first pop group to come from a non-English-speaking country that enjoyed consistent success in the charts of English-speaking countries, including the UK, Ireland, the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the Philippines. The group also enjoyed significant success in Latin American markets, and recorded a collection of their hit songs in Spanish. I like the way that you are giving more importance to popularity outside of US/UK. What you said about ABBA´s popularity is totally true. So yes, ABBA should be added to the top 100, pop is part of rock. In fact, maybe is the most popular subgenre of rock. Also, I think is time to add the King of Pop to the top 10 at least. I concur with the fact that MJ´s is in the top 3 of worldwide popularity (The Beatles are #1, MJ and Elvis are close for #2). In Mexico MJ is huge. I still remember dancing a la thriller when I was a little boy and 10 years later I went to his famous concerts at the Estadio Azteca (in total he gave 5 concerts with a total audience of half a million people, both are still records). |
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| Author: | Echoes [ Wed May 16, 2012 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Bruce wrote: Echoes wrote: I was thinking more as an example of musical / cultural impact, not influence. So does Boone get cultural and musical impact for his covers, and should he be on Sampson's list of Greatest 1950s Rock Artists? All I´m saying is that Clapton helped to introduce reggae (especially Bob Marley) to the mainstream. Every publication that I have read about Reggae´s history mentions Clapton´s cover as a major turn point. I say that scores as cultural / musical impact. Just check the youtube views of the songs you mentioned vs Clapton´s cover of I Shot the Sheriff (Clapton wins by at least 10 million views). |
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| Author: | ClashWho [ Wed May 16, 2012 2:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Echoes wrote: So yes, ABBA should be added to the top 100, pop is part of rock. In fact, maybe is the most popular subgenre of rock. If that's true, then "rock" doesn't mean anything anymore. |
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| Author: | Bruce [ Wed May 16, 2012 2:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Echoes wrote: Bruce wrote: Echoes wrote: I was thinking more as an example of musical / cultural impact, not influence. So does Boone get cultural and musical impact for his covers, and should he be on Sampson's list of Greatest 1950s Rock Artists? All I´m saying is that Clapton helped to introduce reggae (especially Bob Marley) to the mainstream. And Boone helped to introduce rock and roll to the mainstream in 1955, before Elvis was mainstream. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5NMlE3WuBg[/youtube] |
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| Author: | Brett Alan [ Wed May 16, 2012 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Bruce wrote: Echoes wrote: Bruce wrote: Echoes wrote: I was thinking more as an example of musical / cultural impact, not influence. So does Boone get cultural and musical impact for his covers, and should he be on Sampson's list of Greatest 1950s Rock Artists? All I´m saying is that Clapton helped to introduce reggae (especially Bob Marley) to the mainstream. And Boone helped to introduce rock and roll to the mainstream in 1955, before Elvis was mainstream. And, actually, Boone should get a *little* credit to his greatness for that. He's not on any of the Greatest Rock Artists lists because: A) He's not a rock artist. Guess what--Eric Clapton wouldn't be on a Greatest Reggae Artists list even if reggae were completely unknown in the US before his version of "I Shot The Sherrif". (But if that were the case, Clapton would deserve more credit on this list.) B) Unlike with "I Shot The Sherrif", many of the songs Boone was covering would have become mainstream hits here without him. Indeed, some became big mainstream (i.e. pop chart, not just R&B chart) hits despite competing with him. C) Boone scores horribly in musical impact (rock musicians have never had much respect for him) and influence (I don't think he has significant influence even within the pop world, let alone on rock). Now, the better point is that Clapton scoring a major hit with a reggae song doesn't mean so much when Johnny Nash and Desmond Dekker had already done so--Nash had even had a major hit with a Bob Marley song. I do think Clapton gets *some* credit for exposing Marley to AOR radio listeners, but not a lot. |
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| Author: | Brian [ Wed May 16, 2012 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
In addition to the other examples cited, Paul Simon's "Mother and Child Reunion" preceded Clapton's "I Shot the Sheriff" by more than 2 years. Eric Wood wrote: Brian wrote: On Kanye v. Guns, I think Guns wins popularity and cultural impact, and Kanye wins musical impact and influence. To me, it looks like Kanye wins his 2 criteria by slightly more than Guns win their 2 criteria. I think influence is the weak area of the criteria for both of those artists. It seems to me most of Kanye's influence has to be credited to his prior production work for Jay-Z and others. But in cultural, Kanye does very well. Sampson mentioned his ability to tour in the suburbs. I would also give him credit as a fashion trendsetter as he was ahead of the dapper/nerdy "Urkel look" which is still the rage. So I'm not sure he loses in cultural. Good point about Kanye's cultural impact. If Kanye beats or even ties GnR in cultural impact, then I definitely think Kanye beats him overall. In that case GnR's only clear win is popularity, where Kanye also does very well. But there might be room for both in the top 100. Good post also by Sampson about Joel. I think I was underrating his musical impact. |
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| Author: | Brian [ Wed May 16, 2012 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Eric Wood wrote: Classic Rock Junkie wrote: Do we consider Kraftwerk rock? Because I could argue that they are among the 20 most influential bands on the whole list, probably higher. Not sure about anything else though, I'm pretty sure Kraftwerk are considered for the list, but I think you are exaggerating their influence. I think they were too contemporary with a lot of other electronic experimentation to rank top 20. Not that they weren't genuinely innovative, but so were a bunch of others in that era. Yes, Kraftwerk was not only considered, they're on the extended part off the list, at #147 at the moment. They were very influential, but I think not to the degree that CRJ is saying. Also, I think influence is by far their strongest criterion, and their popularity is a good deal less than most of those in the top 100. So everything considered, they fall a little short. |
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| Author: | Bruce [ Wed May 16, 2012 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Brett Alan wrote: C) Boone scores horribly in musical impact (rock musicians have never had much respect for him) Rock musicians of his day had no problem with him. Elvis even talks about liking Boone's latest single (Don't Forbid Me) during the Million Dollar Quartet sessions and sings part of it. |
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| Author: | Bruno [ Wed May 16, 2012 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Brian wrote: In addition to the other examples cited, Paul Simon's "Mother and Child Reunion" preceded Clapton's "I Shot the Sheriff" by more than 2 years. Eric Wood wrote: Brian wrote: On Kanye v. Guns, I think Guns wins popularity and cultural impact, and Kanye wins musical impact and influence. To me, it looks like Kanye wins his 2 criteria by slightly more than Guns win their 2 criteria. I think influence is the weak area of the criteria for both of those artists. It seems to me most of Kanye's influence has to be credited to his prior production work for Jay-Z and others. But in cultural, Kanye does very well. Sampson mentioned his ability to tour in the suburbs. I would also give him credit as a fashion trendsetter as he was ahead of the dapper/nerdy "Urkel look" which is still the rage. So I'm not sure he loses in cultural. Good point about Kanye's cultural impact. If Kanye beats or even ties GnR in cultural impact, then I definitely think Kanye beats him overall. In that case GnR's only clear win is popularity, where Kanye also does very well. But there might be room for both in the top 100. I agree. |
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| Author: | Bruno [ Wed May 16, 2012 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Echoes wrote: I like the way that you are giving more importance to popularity outside of US/UK. What you said about ABBA´s popularity is totally true. So yes, ABBA should be added to the top 100, pop is part of rock. In fact, maybe is the most popular subgenre of rock. Also, I think is time to add the King of Pop to the top 10 at least. I concur with the fact that MJ´s is in the top 3 of worldwide popularity (The Beatles are #1, MJ and Elvis are close for #2). In Mexico MJ is huge. I still remember dancing a la thriller when I was a little boy and 10 years later I went to his famous concerts at the Estadio Azteca (in total he gave 5 concerts with a total audience of half a million people, both are still records). Bruce is right, ABBA should at least be considered for possible inclusion. Their popularity is enormous. Here in Brazil are also very popular. About MJ, for being top 3 in popularity and possibly top 3 in Cultural Impact - alongside the Beatles and Elvis on both criteria - he deserves to be higher on the list. |
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| Author: | Bruce [ Wed May 16, 2012 7:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Bruno_Antonio wrote: Bruce is right, ABBA should at least be considered for possible inclusion. His popularity is enormous. Here in Brazil are also very popular. Abba is a group, not one guy. |
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| Author: | Bruno [ Wed May 16, 2012 7:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Bruce wrote: Bruno_Antonio wrote: Bruce is right, ABBA should at least be considered for possible inclusion. His popularity is enormous. Here in Brazil are also very popular. Abba is a group, not one guy. I've corrected the post. |
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| Author: | Bruce [ Wed May 16, 2012 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
I don't listen to Abba all that much, but of the artists in the top 100, I listen to Abba more often than these... 15. Jimi Hendrix 20. Madonna 22. U2 23. Pink Floyd 27. Run-DMC 28. Nirvana 34. Bob Marley & the Wailers 35. Public Enemy 37. Black Sabbath 41. R.E.M. 54. Joni Mitchell 55. Metallica 63. Pearl Jam 65. 2pac * 66. The Beastie Boys * 67. Eminem * 70. Janet Jackson * 71. Jay-Z * 77. The Police 79. AC/DC 82. Radiohead 83. Mariah Carey * 84. Outkast * 88. N.W.A. 97. Frank Zappa 98. Talking Heads 99. The Velvet Underground 100. The Sex Pistols |
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| Author: | ClashWho [ Wed May 16, 2012 8:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Brian wrote: If Kanye beats or even ties GnR in cultural impact, then I definitely think Kanye beats him overall. GnR is a group, not one guy.[/Bruce] |
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| Author: | Echoes [ Wed May 16, 2012 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision) |
Brian wrote: In addition to the other examples cited, Paul Simon's "Mother and Child Reunion" preceded Clapton's "I Shot the Sheriff" by more than 2 years. That's even more in favor of Clapton. I mean, all of those songs came years before Clapton´s cover of I Shot the Sheriff and during those years Bob Marley was for the mainstream unknown. That changed the year after Clapton covered his song. That is cultural and musical impact. Clapton is well known for introducing other great artists to the mainstream, for example: Robert Johnson, Albert King (both do not count for Clapton's solo career) and Freddie King (and this one counts for Clapton´s solo career given that was part of Layla): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t_1blRfFIU Clapton´s cultural and musical impact is still present to this very day in which he keeps bringing Rock and Blues together at his Crossroads festivals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfBJCUwtgBA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=201I9n2yr8k And as always, Clapton is still presenting new artists to the mainstream, like Gary Clark Jr (my favorite new guitarist): [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Si3_TSw2wQ[/youtube] So yes, IMO Clapton scores big time on Cultural / Musical Impact. |
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