DDD Forum :: View topic - 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)

Brett Alan wrote:

Bruno wrote:

I mean, I think Hendrix scores well in culturall impact, but not to compare with MJ and Madonna, who are in the top 5 on this criterion, imo.

If I were to make a list, Hendrix would be in the top 15 overall.

I don't see him in the top 15 at all. A big part of the problem is that he wasn't around that long. Combining that with his lack of hit singles, and he's way behind the other top artists in popularity--he didn't sell singles or get heavy radio play, he didn't fill arenas for years, and while he had some big albums, he didn't sell as many albums as someone like Zep or Pink Floyd did.

Where does he make that up? Yeah, his musical impact is huge--but there aren't too many contenders here who don't score well in that category. And, again, it's really only a few years of albums and touring that made that impact. He's influential, but he certainly didn't spawn a new genre the way James Brown or arguably Zep did, nor did he have the kind of influence that, say, The Who did by having an impact on multiple genres and inventing the rock opera. I don't see all that much cultural impact...I mean, yeah, he's iconic, but he didn't change the world the way the Beatles, Elvis, and Dylan did, and he didn't influence fashion and dance the way MJ and Madonna did.

I wouldn't put him in the top 20.

Good post, Brett.
On second thought, I think Hendrix dispute somewhere between 16-20 on the list.
The other contestants were Richard, Springsteen, Gaye, Cooke, Prince, U2, Floyd and maybe Queen.

I'm starting to look at the ordering of the 9-15 part of the list.

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. The Rolling Stones
6. Chuck Berry
7. The Who
8. Led Zeppelin
9. Ray Charles
10. Stevie Wonder
11. The Beach Boys
12. Aretha Franklin
13. Fats Domino
14. Michael Jackson
15. Madonna

I would agree with that Bruno. Madonna probably even takes MJ in influence....

Brian wrote:

I'm starting to look at the ordering of the 9-15 part of the list.

Brian, I think you could focus on the order of the top 15 and not just that part. I think those are the right names for the top 15.

Bruno wrote:

Brian wrote:

I'm starting to look at the ordering of the 9-15 part of the list.

Brian, I think you could focus on the order of the top 15 and not just that part. I think those are the right names for the top 15.

I meant look at 9-15 as a first step. Once I determine the order for those positions, then I'll look at who from those positions should move higher.

Negative Creep wrote:

I think Stevie's cultural impact is highly overstated.

I would probably say the top tier artists in cultural impact are these -

Elvis, Beatles, Madonna, MJ, Fats Domino, Little Richard, Nirvana, James Brown, Public Enemy, Run DMC, NWA, Jay-Z, Eminem, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin....

Probably a few I'm forgetting, but those spring to mind immediately.

Quite a few of those are head-scratchers. What's the cultural impact of Janis Joplin and Jay-Z? Why would Public Enemy have more cultural impact than The Rolling Stones, Chuck Berry or The Who?

Does anyone agree with this?

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Chuck Berry
6. Led Zeppelin
7. The Rolling Stones
8. The Who
9. Michael Jackson
10. Madonna
11. Stevie Wonder
12. Ray Charles
13. The Beach Boys
14. Aretha Franklin
15. Fats Domino

Are you serious about that last comment? Public Enemy have way more cultural impact than the Stones, Chuck or the Who? The F.B.I. was even getting involved in P.E.'s prime. It was P.E., not NWA, who first established the whole concept of inner-city angst and rebellion in the context of hip hop.

Is there a significant difference?

They were the FIRST rap group to reflect it, especially in a way that's still being prominent today.

Like I said, the fucking F.B.I. was tapping Chuck's telephone; they were being featured on the news; Chuck was always being ostracized for his hostile views towards authority and white "domineering". They were just generally viewed as threatening and a bad influence on youth (by the older generations mainly of course).

The Rolling Stones, The Who and Chuck Berry weren't? What's more cultural impact, getting the FBI to tap your phone or getting the Metropolitan Opera to book a rock act?

Clash,
That song isn't exactly the same kind of thing that PE were talking about. It was more about hostility toward "the man", and was more of a political, militant rebellion kind of concept.
They were all about retaliation against a racist society.

Quote:

The Rolling Stones, The Who and Chuck Berry weren't? What's more cultural impact, getting the FBI to tap your phone or getting the Metropolitan Opera to book a rock act?

Both are big, but I'd say when the LAW gets involved in trying to downplay your music, that's pretty enormous cultural impact.

Author:	Bruce [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Bruno wrote: Brett Alan wrote: Bruno wrote: I mean, I think Hendrix scores well in culturall impact, but not to compare with MJ and Madonna, who are in the top 5 on this criterion, imo. If I were to make a list, Hendrix would be in the top 15 overall. I don't see him in the top 15 at all. A big part of the problem is that he wasn't around that long. Combining that with his lack of hit singles, and he's way behind the other top artists in popularity--he didn't sell singles or get heavy radio play, he didn't fill arenas for years, and while he had some big albums, he didn't sell as many albums as someone like Zep or Pink Floyd did. Where does he make that up? Yeah, his musical impact is huge--but there aren't too many contenders here who don't score well in that category. And, again, it's really only a few years of albums and touring that made that impact. He's influential, but he certainly didn't spawn a new genre the way James Brown or arguably Zep did, nor did he have the kind of influence that, say, The Who did by having an impact on multiple genres and inventing the rock opera. I don't see all that much cultural impact...I mean, yeah, he's iconic, but he didn't change the world the way the Beatles, Elvis, and Dylan did, and he didn't influence fashion and dance the way MJ and Madonna did. I wouldn't put him in the top 20. Good post, Brett. On second thought, I think Hendrix dispute somewhere between 16-20 on the list. The other contestants were Richard, Springsteen, Gaye, Cooke, Prince, U2, Floyd and maybe Queen. I think people overrate Hendrix because they think he was the greatest ever player on what they see as the main instrument in rock music, rather then to accurately assess his career. It's similar to how Sandy Koufax is overrated in baseball. Many people think he was the greatest pitcher ever. Lots of guys who I know think he was the greatest pitcher they ever saw. Instead of accurately assessing his entire career, they rate him based on emotion for when he was at his peak. And even at his peak, he was overrated, due to playing his home games in the worst hitter's park in baseball. Hendrix had a much more severe short career than Koufax. Jimi's career was 4 years long (not counting when he was a sideman in other acts). That's nothing in music.

Author:	Bruno [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Brian wrote: I'm starting to look at the ordering of the 9-15 part of the list. Brian, I think you could focus on the order of the top 15 and not just that part. I think those are the right names for the top 15. Before I thought if Fats should be in the top 15, but the importance of it in the 50s is great. However, I think he should close the top 15 in the last spot. Current list wrote: 1. The Beatles 2. Elvis Presley 3. James Brown 4. Bob Dylan 5. The Rolling Stones 6. Chuck Berry 7. The Who 8. Led Zeppelin 9. Ray Charles 10. Stevie Wonder 11. The Beach Boys 12. Aretha Franklin 13. Fats Domino 14. Michael Jackson 15. Madonna Once the criterion was confirmed and explained on the first page, I'm more convinced that MJ and Madonna should be in the top 10. Both are part of the top artists in popularity and cultural impact. The cultural impact of MJ is one of the most evident in music history. He is known as the king of music videos, was a fashion icon in the 80s, he has some trademarks as the glove, the hat, the moonwalk. There is a famous fact, he has broken the barrier of MTV spending a clip of a black artist with the highest turnover. He somehow helped MTV and opened the doors for many black artists.

Author:	Negative Creep [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
I would agree with that Bruno. Madonna probably even takes MJ in influence....

Author:	Bruno [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Negative Creep wrote: I would agree with that Bruno. Madonna probably even takes MJ in influence.... Yes, it's almost a tie between the two cultural impact and influence on, imo. MJ takes musical impact and popularity.

Author:	Stryder [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Does anyone agree with this? 1. The Beatles 2. Elvis Presley 3. James Brown 4. Bob Dylan 5. Chuck Berry 6. Led Zeppelin 7. The Rolling Stones 8. The Who 9. Michael Jackson 10. Madonna 11. Stevie Wonder 12. Ray Charles 13. The Beach Boys 14. Aretha Franklin 15. Fats Domino

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Author:	pauldrach [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
No, no one.

Author:	Brian [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Bruno wrote: Brian wrote: I'm starting to look at the ordering of the 9-15 part of the list. Brian, I think you could focus on the order of the top 15 and not just that part. I think those are the right names for the top 15. I meant look at 9-15 as a first step. Once I determine the order for those positions, then I'll look at who from those positions should move higher.

Author:	Bruno [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Brian wrote: Bruno wrote: Brian wrote: I'm starting to look at the ordering of the 9-15 part of the list. Brian, I think you could focus on the order of the top 15 and not just that part. I think those are the right names for the top 15. I meant look at 9-15 as a first step. Once I determine the order for those positions, then I'll look at who from those positions should move higher. All right.

Author:	Negative Creep [ Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
ClashWho wrote: Negative Creep wrote: I think Stevie's cultural impact is highly overstated. I would probably say the top tier artists in cultural impact are these - Elvis, Beatles, Madonna, MJ, Fats Domino, Little Richard, Nirvana, James Brown, Public Enemy, Run DMC, NWA, Jay-Z, Eminem, Bob Dylan, Janis Joplin.... Probably a few I'm forgetting, but those spring to mind immediately. Quite a few of those are head-scratchers. What's the cultural impact of Janis Joplin and Jay-Z? Why would Public Enemy have more cultural impact than The Rolling Stones, Chuck Berry or The Who? Janis' cultural impact lied in making women more aggressive and primitive in the music, and a lack of concern about fashion and 'being womanly'. Jay-Z's cultural impact is huge because of his fashion designs and the way he's managed to stay relevant for so damn long (I'm sure pave could explain this better). Are you serious about that last comment? Public Enemy have way more cultural impact than the Stones, Chuck or the Who? The F.B.I. was even getting involved in P.E.'s prime. It was P.E., not NWA, who first established the whole concept of inner-city angst and rebellion in the context of hip hop.

Author:	ClashWho [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Plants Strider wrote: Does anyone agree with this? 1. The Beatles 2. Elvis Presley 3. James Brown 4. Bob Dylan 5. Chuck Berry 6. Led Zeppelin 7. The Rolling Stones 8. The Who 9. Michael Jackson 10. Madonna 11. Stevie Wonder 12. Ray Charles 13. The Beach Boys 14. Aretha Franklin 15. Fats Domino That's decent, except Led Zeppelin is way too high.

Author:	ClashWho [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Negative Creep wrote: Are you serious about that last comment? Public Enemy have way more cultural impact than the Stones, Chuck or the Who? The F.B.I. was even getting involved in P.E.'s prime. It was P.E., not NWA, who first established the whole concept of inner-city angst and rebellion in the context of hip hop. Did they cause the inner-city angst and rebellion, or did they reflect it?

Author:	Negative Creep [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Is there a significant difference? They were the FIRST rap group to reflect it, especially in a way that's still being prominent today. Like I said, the fucking F.B.I. was tapping Chuck's telephone; they were being featured on the news; Chuck was always being ostracized for his hostile views towards authority and white "domineering". They were just generally viewed as threatening and a bad influence on youth (by the older generations mainly of course). They are ABSOLUTELY one of the biggest groups when it comes to cultural impact.

Author:	ClashWho [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Negative Creep wrote: Is there a significant difference? In terms of cultural impact? I think so. Negative Creep wrote: They were the FIRST rap group to reflect it, especially in a way that's still being prominent today. It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder How I keep from going under It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder How I keep from going under Broken glass everywhere People pissing on the stairs, you know they just don't care I can't take the smell, I can't take the noise Got no money to move out, I guess I got no choice Rats in the front room, roaches in the back Junkies in the alley with the baseball bat I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far Cause a man with a tow-truck repossessed my car Chorus: Don't push me cause I'm close to the edge I'm trying not to lose my head, ah huh-huh-huh [2nd and 5th: ah huh-huh-huh] [4th: say what?] It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder How I keep from going under It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder How I keep from going under Standing on the front stoop, hangin' out the window Watching all the cars go by, roaring as the breezes blow Crazy lady livin' in a bag Eating out of garbage pails, used to be a fag-hag Said she danced the tango, skipped the light fandango The Zircon Princess seemed to lost her senses Down at the peepshow, watching all the creeps So she can tell the stories to the girls back home She went to the city and got social security She had to get a pimp, she couldn't make it on her own [Chorus] My brother's doing bad on my mother's TV She says: "You watch it too much, it's just not healthy!" "All My Children" in the daytime, "Dallas" at night Can't even see the game or the Sugar Ray fight The bill collectors they ring my phone And scare my wife when I'm not home Got a bum education, double-digit inflation I can't take the train to the job, there's a strike at the station Neon King Kong standin' on my back Can't stop to turn around, broke my sacrophiliac A mid-ranged migraine, cancered membrane Sometimes I think I'm going insane, I swear I might hijack a plane My son said: "Daddy I don't wonna go to school Cause the teacher's a jerk!", he must think I'm a fool And all the kids smoke reefer, I think it'd be cheaper If I just got a job, learned to be a street sweeper I'll dance to the beat, shuffle my feet Wear a shirt and tie and run with the creeps Cause it's all about money, ain't a damn thing funny You got to have a con in this land of milk and honey They pushed that girl in front of the train Took her to the doctor, sewed her arm on again Stabbed that man right in his heart Gave him a transplant for a brand new start I can't walk through the park, cause it's crazy after dark Keep my hand on my gun, cause they got me on the run I feel like a outlaw, broke my last glass jar Hear them say: "You want some more livin' on a seesaw?" [Chorus] A child is born with no state of mind Blind to the ways of mankind God is smiling on you but he's frowning too Because only God knows what you'll go through You'll grow in the ghetto, living second rate And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate The places you're playin', where you stay Looks like one great big alley way You'll admire all the number book takers Thugs, pimps, pushers and the big money makers Driving big cars, spending twenties and tens And you wanna grow up to be just like them, huh, Smugglers, scrambles, burglars, gamblers Pickpockets, peddlers even panhandlers You say: "I'm cool, I'm no fool!" But then you wind up dropping out of high school Now you're unemployed, all non-void Walking 'round like you're Pretty Boy Floyd Turned stickup kid, look what you've done did Got sent up for a eight year bid Now your manhood is took and you're a may tag Spend the next two years as a undercover fag Being used and abused to serve like hell Till one day you was found hung dead in a cell It was plain to see that your life was lost You was cold and your body swung back and forth But now your eyes sing the sad, sad song Of how you lived so fast and died so young Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge I'm trying not to lose my head It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder how I keep from going under It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder how I keep from going under Yo Mell, you see that girl there? Yo, that sounded like Cowboy man Cool Yo, what's up Money? Yo, where's Cooly an Raheim? They is downstairs coooling out So what's up for tonight y'all? We could go down to Phoenix We could go check out "Junebug" man Hey yo, you know that girl Betty? Yeah man Come on, come all man Not like it That's what I heard man What's this happening, what's this? What's goin' on? Freeze Don't nobody move or nothin' Y'all know what this is (What's happend?) Get 'em up, get 'em up (What?) Oh man, we're (Right in there) Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five What is that, a gang? No Shut up I don't wanna hear your mouth Shut up Officer, officer, what is the problem? You the problem Hey, you ain't gotta push me man Get in the car, get in the car Get in the god... I said, "Get in the car" Why is he? Negative Creep wrote: Like I said, the fucking F.B.I. was tapping Chuck's telephone; they were being featured on the news; Chuck was always being ostracized for his hostile views towards authority and white "domineering". They were just generally viewed as threatening and a bad influence on youth (by the older generations mainly of course). The Rolling Stones, The Who and Chuck Berry weren't? What's more cultural impact, getting the FBI to tap your phone or getting the Metropolitan Opera to book a rock act?

Author:	ClashWho [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
Negative Creep wrote: Clash, That song isn't exactly the same kind of thing that PE were talking about. It was more about hostility toward "the man", and was more of a political, militant rebellion kind of concept. They were all about retaliation against a racist society. I think we're splitting hairs, here. Negative Creep wrote: Quote: The Rolling Stones, The Who and Chuck Berry weren't? What's more cultural impact, getting the FBI to tap your phone or getting the Metropolitan Opera to book a rock act? Both are big, but I'd say when the LAW gets involved in trying to downplay your music, that's pretty enormous cultural impact. Like a police officer pulling a gun on Pete Townshend and telling him he's going to shoot unless he stops smashing his guitar?

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