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The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
https://digitaldreamdoor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3008		 Page 46 of 139
Author:  Negative Creep [ Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
pauldrach wrote:
So, does this look good to everybody?

21. Rush
22. The Stooges
23. Red Hot Chili Peppers
24. Def Leppard
25. Boston


Didnt you just agree with me that RatM are greater than Boston?

*Also, I wouldnt call Santana (the original band) a hard rock band, so some of their stuff falls into that area.

*And finally, this Deep Purple vs. Van Halen thing is tough. Purple is much bigger in the UK, and VH in the USA.
Influence is what we're arguing here, I guess.
I really dont see how Purple were an influence on progressive metal. Child In Time would be the only song I would consider to really fit that description. Prog metal definitely owes more to bands who came a few years after Purple - like Rainbow, Rush, early Judas Priest, etc.
I'm with paul on this one.
As a whole, Deep Purple have indeed had a lot of influence, most of it on metal (Metallica and Iron Maiden especially), but Van Halen influenced a whole new aesthetic to hard rock. Consider most of the hard rock that was around in 1977/78. Of the more recent crop, you had bands like Motorhead, Rush, Rainbow, Priest, Boston, Queen, KISS, etc. Plus, the older guard of hard rock bands like Sabbath, Heep, and even Purple themselves were either faded away or on the verge of extinction by 1978.
Van Halen came along with a sound that was different than ALL of those bands, and it was the main impetus for the entire 80's hair/glam metal scene. In many people's eyes, Eddie redefined the potential of the electric guitar more than anyone since Hendrix (arguable, but not unreasonable).
Author:  gminer [ Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Negative Creep wrote:
I really dont see how Purple were an influence on progressive metal.


I suspect if you do a google search on that subject my friend, you will find quite a few examples (April,CiT, Fools, Pictures of Home, Highway Star, Burn, Stormbringer etc) and articles on that very topic which has been around and discussed for many a year as it relates to Purple .... here is a link below with Ian Paice on the origins of progressive metal from Drum! magazine .... and I suspect Purple had some influence with the band Rainbow :biggrin: .... Take care

http://www.drummagazine.com/lessons/pos ... ive-metal/

Image

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Author:  Negative Creep [ Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Quote:
I'm agreeing with gminer, Deep Purple were one of the pioneers of hard rock. Van Halen mainly influenced glam metal (aka shitty hard rock) replace Boston with RATM and we're good.


Whether or not you think glam metal is "shitty" is irrelevant. Influence is still influence. And VH's influence was monumental, not just in the guitar aspect, but also their whole sound, image and style.

Quote:
21. Rush
22. The Stooges
23. Red Hot Chili Peppers
24. Def Leppard
25. Rage Against the Machine

There you go!!


What about the MC5? They score very low in popularity overall, but have enormous influence and acclaim.
Author:  Negative Creep [ Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Quote:
I suspect if you do a google search on that subject my friend, you will find quite a few examples (April,CiT, Fools, Pictures of Home, Highway Star, Burn, Stormbringer etc) and articles on that very topic which has been around and discussed for many a year as it relates to Purple .... here is a link below with Ian Paice on the origins of progressive metal from Drum! magazine .... and I suspect Purple had some influence with the band Rainbow .... Take care


Okay I forgot about Fools, that is a masterpiece my friend.
But regarding "April", I wouldnt call it an influence on progressive METAL, it's about as far from metal as you can get. Probably more of an influence on lighter progressive rock, I'd think.
I thought we were mainly talking about Mark II and onward.

I dont really see Pictures Of Home, Highway Star, Burn, or Stormbringer as progressive.... :eh:
Author:  Zach [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Negative Creep wrote:
What about the MC5? They score very low in popularity overall, but have enormous influence and acclaim.


Not worthy of the Top 25, but they'd probably fall somewhere not too far behind.
Author:  Negative Creep [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
On the other hand, I'm starting to reconsider my position on The Doors.
As a lifelong diehard Doors disciple, I can say again that their musical impact is very huge.
Artists ranging from Fantasia Barrino, Joey Ramone, Alice Cooper, and beyond have all sang their praise.
They did have some fairly significant influence, mainly in regards to their unpredictable and dramatic live shows.

What's the general consensus on them making the top 25?
Author:  Negative Creep [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Hold on now, we havent even properly decided on 21-25.

Rock N Herbs wrote:
I wouldn't rank them high on a hard rock artists list. Just sayin.


The Doors have plenty of stellar hard rock tunes that have become famous.
Break On Through, Back Door Man, Strange Days, Love Me Two Times, When The Music's Over, Five To One (this one is about as hard rock as it gets), L.A. Woman, Roadhouse Blues, The Changeling, etc.
Still not really sure on where they should place though.

Anyway, what about The Smashing Pumpkins? They were a big influence on the college/indie/alt scene, and they have enough hard rock credentials to score relatively high on the list, imo.

I'm re-thinking this a little.
The Doors have a little more influence than Def Leppard, and probably have more musical impact (for reasons I've already stated). DL takes popularity, but that's it.
Also, IMO Rage deserves to be there because they were the main impetus for rap-metal in the 90's. Faith No More started out merging rap with metal, but eventually moved on to more 'eccentric' things. So I think Rage should get a little more credit.

21. Rush
22. The Stooges
23. Chili Peppers
24. Rage Against The Machine
25. The Doors
Author:  Negative Creep [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
I edited my above post.
Author:  pauldrach [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
I'll keep posting this till you do it. Do you even read my posts?

pauldrach wrote:
Neg, could you maybe add this link to the first post for future reference: http://digitaldreamdoor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3008&p=275975#p275975
Author:  pauldrach [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
gminer wrote:
bunch of youtube links I can't watch thanks to the GEMA

I added Hawkwind, April Wine and Golden Earring to the starting list though I think only Hawkwind might make the top 100.
Author:  pauldrach [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Negative Creep wrote:
Didnt you just agree with me that RatM are greater than Boston?

Actually I may have. As I see it Boston take popularity. RAtM take both impact/acclaim and influence. But since Boston's advantage in popularity is bigger than RAtM's in the two other criteria I could still see Boston ahead of RAtM. I don't really care in which order they are as long as they are rather close to each other on the list.

Negative Creep wrote:
I really dont see how Purple were an influence on progressive metal. Child In Time would be the only song I would consider to really fit that description. Prog metal definitely owes more to bands who came a few years after Purple - like Rainbow, Rush, early Judas Priest, etc.

As gminer pointed out Purple introduced more complex musical structures to hard rock (otherwise usually very simple music). Thus they are indeed an early influence on all other progressive hard rock styles, even though they were not directly involved in the emergence of prog-metal.

Negative Creep wrote:
Consider most of the hard rock that was around in 1977/78. Of the more recent crop, you had bands like Motorhead, Rush, Rainbow, Priest, Boston, Queen, KISS, etc. Plus, the older guard of hard rock bands like Sabbath, Heep, and even Purple themselves were either faded away or on the verge of extinction by 1978.
Van Halen came along with a sound that was different than ALL of those bands, and it was the main impetus for the entire 80's hair/glam metal scene. In many people's eyes, Eddie redefined the potential of the electric guitar more than anyone since Hendrix (arguable, but not unreasonable).

Van Halen's sound was indeed different from those bands but other bands had mixed pop and hard rock before them. I don't think they're that important as musical innovators but they were at the forefront of a new musical style. They brought glam metal into the mainstream and thus set the stage for a whole new wave of poppy hard rock bands. Deep Purple were more important than them in terms of inspiring other artists but as I see it that is part of the acclaim/impact criterion and I think we all agree that Purple take that.
Author:  pauldrach [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Rock N Herbs wrote:
I'm agreeing with gminer, Deep Purple were one of the pioneers of hard rock. Van Halen mainly influenced glam metal (aka shitty hard rock) replace Boston with RATM and we're good.

You can't pioneer a style that has already existed for more than three years.

Rock N Herbs wrote:
21. Rush
22. The Stooges
23. Red Hot Chili Peppers
24. Def Leppard
25. Rage Against the Machine

There you go!!

I'm fine with that.
Author:  pauldrach [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Negative Creep wrote:
The Doors have plenty of stellar hard rock tunes that have become famous.
Break On Through, Back Door Man, Strange Days, Love Me Two Times, When The Music's Over, Five To One (this one is about as hard rock as it gets), L.A. Woman, Roadhouse Blues, The Changeling, etc.

Your definition of hard rock seems to be even more liberal than Clash's. But then again you wrote: "Any kind of guitar-driven, aggressive rock music with hard-edged riffs and more emphasis on volume than melody."

"Break On Through (To the Other Side)", "Five to One", "Roadhouse Blues" and maybe "The Changeling" fit that definition.

Negative Creep wrote:
Anyway, what about The Smashing Pumpkins? They were a big influence on the college/indie/alt scene, and they have enough hard rock credentials to score relatively high on the list, imo.

I'd say when talking about alt-bands that at least Sonic Youth, Pixies, Soundgarden and probably Alice in Chains should be ahead of them.

Negative Creep wrote:
The Doors have a little more influence than Def Leppard, and probably have more musical impact (for reasons I've already stated). DL takes popularity, but that's it.

I don't think so. The Doors' rather largely organ-driven sound was not that big an influence on hard rock and I wouldn't say that there four hard rock songs giver them bigger musical impact/acclaim than Def Leppard's entire recorded output. It's not like "Pyromania" and "Hysteria" were critically slammed albums.

Negative Creep wrote:
Also, IMO Rage deserves to be there because they were the main impetus for rap-metal in the 90's. Faith No More started out merging rap with metal, but eventually moved on to more 'eccentric' things. So I think Rage should get a little more credit.

I also think that RAtM were the band that really started the whole nu-metal scene of the 1990s/2000s. The first band to fuse rap with hard rock would be RHCP.

Negative Creep wrote:
21. Rush
22. The Stooges
23. Chili Peppers
24. Rage Against The Machine
25. The Doors

I already gave you my opinion on Leppard vs. Doors (who shouldn't be close to this high) so here's my take on Leppard vs. Rage:
Popularity: Def Leppard (by not that much)
Impact/acclaim: Rage (also not by that much)
Influence: Rage (fairly easily)

Actually one could probably make a case for Soundgarden > Def Leppard. New suggestion:

21. Rush
22. The Stooges
23. Red Hot Chili Peppers
24. Rage Against the Machine
25. Soundgarden

With Boston, Def Leppard and Bon Jovi as very strong contenders for the next bunch.
Author:  gminer [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Negative Creep wrote:
i thought we were mainly talking about Mark II and onward.


Yes MKI forward as it laid a foundation towards MKII and brought the highly skilled session players Blackmore, Lord and Paice together... tunes such as And The Address and the Bach and Roll of Mandrake Root with its violin style guitar attack... all those tunes with extended soloing between Lord and Blackmore ie Why Didn`t Rosemary?, the poppy hard rock of Hush ... , the originality of a self composed classical tune in April with its sweep picked closing to the instrumental Wring that Neck deemed to violent a title for the US and changed to Hard Road .... to the band in 1968 that was the opener for Cream on their farewell tour that was heavier and harder and removed from the tour because they out shone the openers ... US TV appearances on Playboy after Dark to Lord doing a stint on the Dating Game.... A band that produced 3 studio albums in less than a year, successful recordings in the US including 2 very successful tours of the US ..... yes MKI forward my friend ....Take care
Author:  gminer [ Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Greatest Artists Of Hard Rock
Negative Creep wrote:
I dont really see Pictures Of Home, Highway Star, Burn, or Stormbringer as progressive.... :eh:


I`ll use Highway Star for starters ... and one of the breakdowns of its structure and style which is very accurate... basically classical music disguised as hard rock ... and as you know Rhoades, Malmsteen, EVH, Vai, Satch and many others were influenced by this style and approach ... Take care

“Highway Star,” is off the 1972 LP Machine Head. The song “Highway Star” loosely follows the rondo form of A B A C A B A, which is typical of Haydn’s musical style. After a short introduction, the A section comes in with an exposition that states the main theme. This theme is further developed within the B section where it goes back to A again. In the C section it has an improvisatory development that allows for the main subject to be taken apart and leads the way for fresh ideas to be inserted into the music. Afterward, the song goes back to A, but instead of truly going to B, it goes to another C section, which later goes back to A again. The form is close to a classic rondo form, but the improvisatory nature of the song tends to make it slightly different.

The solo sections taken by Blackmore and Jon Lord are played over a descending bass line, which is played chromatically. This base line is very much like the ground bass patterns used in the seventeenth century. Henry Purcell often used this form in his music. The solos are done using a series of arpeggios. This use of arpeggios is very much in the style of Bach. The classical features within the song, along with the use of repetitious melodic patterns, are the square phrase structures, the virtuosic soloing, and the harmonic progressions, which feature the soloist descending through tetrachords by employing half steps or by fifths. These harmonic progressions are Baroque.

Even the sixteenth note patterns, which are played symmetrically and repetitively, are also in the style used in Baroque music. One of the clever things that Blackmore does in this song is overdub the thirds within the harmony. This is very characteristic of Vivaldi’s harmonic progressions. A good example of this is Vivaldi’s Violin Concerto in D Minor. Both Blackmore and Vivaldi used regular and predictable harmonic sequences within their music."

Negative Creep - If you are interested a further tune of interest is Burn with its combination of Bach and Gershwin into the hard rock format along with the progressive drum patterns under pinning the vocals throughout the tune. For those who know the Blackmorism, it is "Fascinatin' Rhythm" on steroids.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCnebZnysmI[/youtube]
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