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state your unpopular opinions as facts
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Author:  Brett Alan [ Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Adequate Gatsby wrote:
They were important towards making the album the dominant format, but I honestly can't think of any of their albums that functions better as a complete whole than it does as a collection of songs. Obviously the b-side of Abbey Road, but other than that.


Not Pepper? Because I would think that's the poster child for an album that functions better as a complete whole than it does as a collection of songs. It's widely considered the greatest album ever, but most don't rank it that highly song-for-song; only ADITL is widely considered a great song, and I can't imagine too many people have more than one or two songs on it that they love.

I also think the US version of Rubber Soul works wonderfully as an album, even though the group didn't conceive of it in that form.

Tougher to say with my two favorite Beatles albums, Revolver and the White Album. I think they work together very well, although they're both wildly all over the map in tone and style, so I can understand why people would enjoy them more as separate songs.
Author:  boo boo [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Honestly I love every song on Sgt. Peppers, it's easily their most consistant album, it may not be a "true" concept album but it really was one of the first rock albums that succeeded in being a cohesive work of art, that is why it's held in such high esteem.
Author:  Patrick [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
yeah sgt P is one tonal landscape from start to finish
Author:  ClashWho [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Patrick wrote:
yeah sgt P is one tonal landscape from start to finish


Sarcasm?
Author:  Deany [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
boo boo wrote:
Honestly I love every song on Sgt. Peppers, it's easily their most consistant album, it may not be a "true" concept album but it really was one of the first rock albums that succeeded in being a cohesive work of art, that is why it's held in such high esteem.


I've never found Sgt. Pepper to be an especially consistent album, but I agree that it works best as a cohesive whole. Contrast that with Help!, my personal pick for most consistent Beatles album: song-for-song, it beats Pepper, in my opinion; but Pepper is the better work when taken as a whole.
Author:  corrections [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Brett Alan wrote:
Adequate Gatsby wrote:
They were important towards making the album the dominant format, but I honestly can't think of any of their albums that functions better as a complete whole than it does as a collection of songs. Obviously the b-side of Abbey Road, but other than that.


Not Pepper? Because I would think that's the poster child for an album that functions better as a complete whole than it does as a collection of songs. It's widely considered the greatest album ever, but most don't rank it that highly song-for-song; only ADITL is widely considered a great song, and I can't imagine too many people have more than one or two songs on it that they love.

I also think the US version of Rubber Soul works wonderfully as an album, even though the group didn't conceive of it in that form.

Tougher to say with my two favorite Beatles albums, Revolver and the White Album. I think they work together very well, although they're both wildly all over the map in tone and style, so I can understand why people would enjoy them more as separate songs.


The White Album is basically a compilation album and does not at all function as a unified work. Weird thing about Sgt. Peppers is it feels fairly tonally consistent throughout except A Day in the Life (the best song by far) feels a bit out of place. Its not thematically that different it just kind of feels like it should be its own thing. Abbey Road's B-side is obviously a unified work but even the A-side flows together great with the B-side.
Author:  Brett Alan [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
corrections wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
Tougher to say with my two favorite Beatles albums, Revolver and the White Album. I think they work together very well, although they're both wildly all over the map in tone and style, so I can understand why people would enjoy them more as separate songs.


The White Album is basically a compilation album and does not at all function as a unified work.


Sure. As I said, they're both wildly all over the map. (Revolver was much more of a group effort, but it's still hard to find much unity between "For No One", "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Yellow Submarine", and "Love You To".) So the question is, can an album function as a non-unified whole, if you get my meaning?
Author:  Georgi [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Of course it can. Being widely disparate is just as valid a method of creating an album as being really unified in sound.
Author:  corrections [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Georgi wrote:
Of course it can. Being widely disparate is just as valid a method of creating an album as being really unified in sound.


It can be but it must have some form of connection otherwise its just a compilation and really not a unique independent work to be evaluated.
Author:  Tim [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
corrections wrote:
Georgi wrote:
Of course it can. Being widely disparate is just as valid a method of creating an album as being really unified in sound.


It can be but it must have some form of connection otherwise its just a compilation and really not a unique independent work to be evaluated.

But compilations can be evaluated, can't they?
Author:  Georgi [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
corrections wrote:
Georgi wrote:
Of course it can. Being widely disparate is just as valid a method of creating an album as being really unified in sound.


It can be but it must have some form of connection otherwise its just a compilation and really not a unique independent work to be evaluated.


This makes me think of Physical Graffiti. 8 of the tracks were recorded in the same sessions in 1974, with the rest of the tracks dating back as far as 1970. But I absolutely think that is an album that can be viewed of and really respected as a whole. It begs the question as to what exactly is the "form of connection" that makes an album a unique independent work worthy of evaluation. A concept album? Recurring lyrical themes throughout? Is the theme "these are the X songs we've decided to present together to represent where we're at creatively" not enough? A compilation isn't quite a fair comparison in this regard since usually all the songs have already been included on a prior release.
Author:  corrections [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Georgi wrote:
corrections wrote:
Georgi wrote:
Of course it can. Being widely disparate is just as valid a method of creating an album as being really unified in sound.


It can be but it must have some form of connection otherwise its just a compilation and really not a unique independent work to be evaluated.


This makes me think of Physical Graffiti. 8 of the tracks were recorded in the same sessions in 1974, with the rest of the tracks dating back as far as 1970. But I absolutely think that is an album that can be viewed of and really respected as a whole. It begs the question as to what exactly is the "form of connection" that makes an album a unique independent work worthy of evaluation. A concept album? Recurring lyrical themes throughout? Is the theme "these are the X songs we've decided to present together to represent where we're at creatively" not enough? A compilation isn't quite a fair comparison in this regard since usually all the songs have already been included on a prior release.


I would say no its not enough (or at least not enough to make an album truly great). I've arrived at a new system that I think takes the best aspects of both evaluating based on song (the true individual works for a lot of artists) and while still respecting the artistic potential of an album. This does not mean I won't evaluate the album but the album will score more poorly. Indeed I'd rate an individual song from that type of album higher than the album in all likelihood (if they were good). For an album that might be of the White Album type it is possible that I'd rate every song as superior to the album itself. Think of it this way if you listened to a song with no thematic, musical, tonal, lyrical, or structural unity would you evaluate that song as good? So why should albums be treated any differently?

Now this is not to say there can't be really good albums that are wildly divergent in musical style. Ween is really good at tying together a ridiculous number of styles in albums by having a unified overarching tone and sequencing them well. In the same way a song can have some crazy jumps but still works. But the album still has to hold together otherwise its just a mediocre album even if the album is completely stuffed with amazing songs. That incidentally doesn't make the artist any worse because not having good albums doesn't mean you don't have good songs.
Author:  Cripplers Quest [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Starless and Bible Black is the prog white album.
Author:  Georgi [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
You make some interesting points, corrections. I'm in a bit of a non-album listening mood in the last six months (mainly due to starting work and having less time) but as I listen to some albums over the next week for Treefingers, I will mull over your points. Deep down though, it feels kind of wrong to apply the same standards of evaluating songs to an album as a whole. They are both different constructs completely. I don't see it as a necessary weakness at all if an album is a bit all of the place - if it goes in completely different directions at time, in the qualities you mention. An album (unless it's one of those track flowing into another, mix type, albums) has natural breaks that allow you to prepare for the music to go into a completely different direction. I would also say that most albums worth their salt have some kind all "thematic, musical, tonal, lyrical or structural" unity to at least some extent. You say that the White Album isn't a unified work, and can't really be evaluated as an album, but for me, it's beauty is that it's the 4 guys, all doing their own things in the own voices, coming together to create this musical palette. It's just a completely different type of album to something that's incredibly flowing like Abbey Road or Since I Left You or whatever album like that you might think of. I enjoy both types of albums. I like dipping in and out of an album and slowing getting to know it if it's the sprawling type, I also love that feeling of a whole album from start to finish and the joys of that experience..
Author:  corrections [ Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
Cripplers Quest wrote:
Starless and Bible Black is the prog white album.


Definitely.
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