Agreed. You stated it better than I did.

MBDTF has such a tense feel to it, I feel like it's the epitome of an all too public artist struggling with his fame. It's so hard to remove it from IRL context but if you manage to do that I still think it's pretty rewarding. I love how it starts out as an energetic and head bobbing hip hop album and slowly devolves into this noisy, thick dirge kind of thing. The Disintegration Loops of hip hop (sorta) (probably not really) (it is a good album okay).

mbdtf is kanye-core to the max, which makes it incredible. kanye doesn't need talent to make a good record - in fact something like 808's and heartbreak is clumsy as hell at points but it still rules, he just needs bombast and grandiosity (both of which mbdtf have in heaps alongwith some of the best beats and production ever). truly the jesus christ of our generation

It's also worth noting that while Kanye himself may not have the talent to execute his ambitions, he had a stellar cast of co-producers and so on to help realise his vision, and as far as I'm concerned, they pulled it off on MBDTF.

i always found that the whole ambition exceeding talent was a quality i liked about kanye because it makes him so much more identifiable and approachable. It's actually odd just how much i can identify with such a popular artist like him (and mbdtf at his most popular). And since he does have limits, he uses the only 2 things he is good at, creativity and confidence, to try to help him rise over them. No flow? Concentrate on smart punchline rapping. Can't sing? Use autotune. Bad at restraint? Don't fix it, you're goddamn kanye west.

I've always liked Kanye's flow.

yeah i'm narrowing flow into something aesthetically pleasing and mellifluous and grading it off that. Kanye has trouble in making his words sound like they have a solid unity. His strength is in the punchline, and he is very creative in that. In the spectrum of flow, on the right end of the spectrum is Q-Tip circa early 90's, on the left end of it is MF Doom (the anti-flow), kanye is definitely nestled somewhere in the middle, a little to the left, like his big dick.

It's funny you use phrases like anti or no flow, because I've always basically considered flow to be the rhythm of the words being rapped - so you always have some kind of flow. The question is whether the flow is good or bad - and that boils down to how well the rap fits with the beat. With DOOM, I've always considered him to have great flow - it's his delivery which might be considered boring (but which I personally feel fits the mood of the beats he usually raps over - and he can also step it up if needs be).

Can you explain what you mean by "making his words sound like they have a solid unity"? I agree that ultimately Kanye isn't a great rapper - but that boils down more to him not having the great range and genius ability of the greats, rather than what he puts out being poor. I also think he's improved a lot as a rapper since he came out of the 808s period.

Yeah for the anti-flow thing, i just wanted to sound cool by making up a spectrum. Tho MF Doom, has a kind of thing where he is perfectly fine removing himself out of his beats only to engage with it at perfect moments. So you get these unusual pauses for someone who is clearly conscious of the aestheticism of his words as shown in his word choices that are deceptively simple, but entirely on point and witty ("more cheese than doritos, cheetos or fritos"). It's a profound effect overall as a rapper.

It's hard to say what I mean by that but I gave that Clipse line a page back in this thread for a good example of solid unity, where the sound of the words kind of move cyclically as well as forwardly moving the beat. It's working on a macro level riding the beat and fitting the song, and micro levels with words blending in with one another on a line by line basis.

Kanye has more of an announcing kind of flow, there's still an emphasis on the meaning of his punchlines, but not on how the words sound and blend in with each other. But yes, he is getting better, as shown in his work in "Monster", tho that beat was made for flow execution and only jigga some how manages to mess it up.

i like kanye's music because of how his talent has a visible ceiling that he doesn't let limit his creative ambition. there's no self-consciousness or restraint in his music. it's really easy for someone to tone down the loudness of their ambition to mask their shortcomings; people just acting like they care less and trying less hard, letting shortcomings suppress their ambition instead of their ambition suppressing their shortcomings. his confidence and willingness to publicize his vices and struggles with so much openness in his music makes it better.

All kudos to him giving free play to his ambition—it makes his music a more interesting failure than it would be if he toned down his ambition for the sake of his lower talent level (then it would just be boring—now it is at least interesting, even if it isn't good). But he shouldn't get a free pass for being shitty just because he makes attempts to be great.

yeah pnoom has a good point, I mean, is everyone going to start praising Tool now as well?

I like Kanye best when he is over-the-top but still has a personable, endearing quality. "Niggas in Paris" is a great example of this. Just a fantastically ridiculous song. But most of the songs on "My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" (again, besides "Runaway") just don't have any qualities I can connect with.

Except Tool's ambition isn't even interesting. Just wanky.

that's not what i mean at all. maybe i wasn't clear enough. i don't only like his music because of some abstract admiration for his ambition, or that i give the way his music actually sounds to me a free pass because of what he accomplishes by working around his talent. i like his music for the way it sounds. err

so i finally got a listen to the new frank ocean album, it is indeed very good, and part of it has to deal with how ambitiously structured it is and the intricacies of the production. The only thing that's keeping me from ultimately loving it is that I simply don't know Frank Ocean very well and I think a big part of this album will have more poignant results if you can understand the kind of personality Ocean is. And that's where I fall short, more listens/interviews should help.