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100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
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Author:  Echoes [ Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Forgotten Son wrote:
You really need to listen to more Alternative Rock/Post-Punk/Hardcore from the 80s, Echoes. You'll then realise that heavily distorted power chords in that style aren't particularly new nor can they all be attributed to Nirvana.


Then it will be really easy for you to tell me who is the main influence of all those bands that I just mentioned.
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Cobain has its influences, yes. How many more times do I need to say that for this list that is a good thing? The more influences a guitarist has the better. Just look at Hendrix, Clapton or The Beatles. All of them were influenced by tons of bands.

I really don´t understand these kind of discussions. For example, lets take Iommi. He didn´t invented heavy metal guitar. You can hear Heavy Metal guitar years before Black Sabbath: The Kinks, Cream, Hendrix, The Bealtes, Jeff Beck, Led Zeppelin, Steppenwolf, Blue Cheer, etc. So, if I use the same argument you are using, his creativity is cero. Not only that, I can also say that Iommi didn’t influence anybody. The real influence of heavy metal bands comes from Cream, Blue Cheer, etc.
Author:  Forgotten Son [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Echoes wrote:
Then it will be really easy for you to tell me who is the main influence of all those bands that I just mentioned.


I'm not massively familiar with any of the four, but I do know there isn't really a "main influence". Offspring were mostly influenced by punk bands like Dead Kennedys, The Clash, Ramones etc. Silverchair were influenced by grunge in general, as were Bush, though the latter band also had influence from 80s and 90s Alternative Rock bands like Pixies and Smashing Pumpkins. Likewise Blood Red Shoes draw influences mostly from Alternative Rock and Punk, bands like Fugazi, Sonic Youth and Pixies.

All these bands do cite Nirvana as an influence to some extent, but this is hardly sufficient evidence for Kurt Cobain being the greatest guitarist of the last 20 years.

Echoes wrote:
Cobain has its influences, yes. How many more times do I need to say that for this list that is a good thing? The more influences a guitarist has the better. Just look at Hendrix, Clapton or The Beatles. All of them were influenced by tons of bands.

I really don´t understand these kind of discussions. For example, lets take Iommi. He didn´t invented heavy metal guitar. You can hear Heavy Metal guitar years before Black Sabbath: The Kinks, Cream, Hendrix, The Bealtes, Jeff Beck, Led Zeppelin, Steppenwolf, Blue Cheer, etc. So, if I use the same argument you are using, his creativity is cero. Not only that, I can also say that Iommi didn’t influence anybody. The real influence of heavy metal bands comes from Cream, Blue Cheer, etc.


Cool strawman. I'm not attacking Cobain for having numerous influences - as you so it's a good thing to draw from numerous styles - just that as a guitar player his influence is limited because most significant guitar trends after grunge were not influenced by Cobain but rather by Cobain's influences.

So Cobain might have an identifiable playing style, like the vast majority of guitar players who've used to the instrument for several years (I know I do) but it isn't sufficiently new and innovative to call him that great. He may have had some influence on a few tracks by a few bands, but not enough to call him that great.
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Self Esteem is a rip-off of SLTS. Silverchair is the perfect mix between Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Bush is a rip-off of Nirvana. There are lots of other bands that clearly shows an influence of Cobain´s guitar playing. I really don´t understand how you can deny that Cobain is the most influential guitar player of the last 2 decades.

Look at this list by Sampson:

1. Elvis Presley
2. The Beatles
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Chuck Berry
6. Run-D.M.C.
7. The Jimi Hendrix Experience
8. Ray Charles
9. Led Zeppelin
10. Fats Domino
11. Aretha Franklin
12. Clyde McPhatter
13. Little Richard
14. Madonna
15. Buddy Holly & The Crickets
16. Bill Haley & The Comets
17. Michael Jackson
18. The Beach Boys
19. Sam Cooke
20. The Who
21. Bo Diddley
22. Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
23. Black Sabbath
24. Johnny Otis
25. Public Enemy
26. Stevie Wonder
27. The Byrds
28. N.W.A.
29. The Velvet Underground
30. The Rolling Stones
31. Sonny Til & The Orioles
32. Nirvana

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1035

Nirvana is by far the most influential band of the last 2 decades.
Author:  George [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
then Madonna is an even more influential guitarist than Nirvana/Cobain!!!!11 OH MY GOD!!!! you've made me see the light!!!! wait, hang on, lemme edit the main rock list before the guitar gods smite me... and elvis presley is a more influential guitarist than jimi hendrix, duh... heck, why not just copy and paste that list instead of any greatest rock anything list. run dmc's drum machine is a greater drummer than john bonham.
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
:evil:
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Can we at least agree that Nirvana is a guitar driven band?
Author:  George [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
no, it is obviously a saxophone driven band
Author:  Forgotten Son [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Echoes wrote:
Look at this list by Sampson


That's great and all, but it says little about Cobain's greatness as a guitar player, as George has humorously pointed out.

Echoes wrote:
Self Esteem is a rip-off of SLTS. Silverchair is the perfect mix between Nirvana and Pearl Jam. Bush is a rip-off of Nirvana. There are lots of other bands that clearly shows an influence of Cobain´s guitar playing.


A few songs by a few bands is not nearly enough to justify such a high placement. This argument can be advanced for numerous more accomplished guitarists that haven't even made your list, let alone as high as you've placed Cobain. Take my favourite guitarist, Steve Rothery: he's had numerous immitators amongst Neo-Prog bands, as well as influencing respected modern Prog guitarists from popular bands like Dream Theater, Riverside, Porcupine Tree, Swallow the Sun. Should Rothery be top 40? Fuck no, I think his placement on Yngtchie's list is damn near perfect. That is just one example of many.
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Forgotten Son wrote:
Echoes wrote:
Look at this list by Sampson


That's great and all, but it says little about Cobain's greatness as a guitar player, as George has humorously pointed out.



I disagree. IMO is mainly because of Cobain´s guitar playing (maybe 60%). I am going to give you an example, I don´t know what the fuck Cobain is singing about (the only songs I understand are SLTS and Come as You Are). I don´t understand anything he is saying when he sings.
Author:  Forgotten Son [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Do you know what Kurt Cobain's guitar is singing about? That's a pretty stupid double-standard.
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Forgotten Son wrote:
A few songs by a few bands is not nearly enough to justify such a high placement. This argument can be advanced for numerous more accomplished guitarists that haven't even made your list, let alone as high as you've placed Cobain. Take my favourite guitarist, Steve Rothery: he's had numerous immitators amongst Neo-Prog bands, as well as influencing respected modern Prog guitarists from popular bands like Dream Theater, Riverside, Porcupine Tree, Swallow the Sun. Should Rothery be top 40? Fuck no, I think his placement on Yngtchie's list is damn near perfect. That is just one example of many.


It is not a few songs by a few bands. Cobain changed the way rock guitar is played since 1991 - 1992.

I mean, where are all these mainstream bands that plays like EVH or the hair bands? I only can think of The Darkness (which is more like a one hit wonder kind of band).
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Forgotten Son wrote:
Do you know what Kurt Cobain's guitar is singing about? That's a pretty stupid double-standard.


It’s all about the feeling. I can feel his anger through his guitar.
Author:  Forgotten Son [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Echoes wrote:
It is not a few songs by a few bands. Cobain changed the way rock guitar is played since 1991 - 1992.

I mean, where are all these mainstream bands that plays like EVH or the hair bands? I only can think of The Darkness (which is more like a one hit wonder kind of band).


Where are all the guitarists in mainstream bands that play like Kurt Cobain? Why is the fact that they're in mainstream bands make them count more? You've given us four songs by four bands, all but one of which was released in the last few years. If Kurt Cobain has changed guitar music forever, how come most rock guitar players these days are influenced by guitarists other than Cobain?

Arcade Fire, who won a grammy for the latest album, are mostly influenced by alternative rock bands like Sonic Youth, Pixies, Mercury Rev, Talking Heads etc. Muse, one of the most popular bands at the moment, influenced by bands like Queen, Radiohead and The Smashing Pumpkins. Coldplay, primarily influenced by Radiohead. Mogwai, one of the most successful pioneers of Post-Rock, influenced by Slint, My Bloody Valentine and Sonic Youth. Where are all these bands that owe a huge debt to Cobain's guitar playing?

You're reasoning here is totally unsound.

Echoes wrote:
It’s all about the feeling. I can feel his anger through his guitar.


But not through his trademark screamy vocals?
Author:  Echoes [ Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest Rock Guitarists (Alternative Version)
Forgotten Son wrote:
Where are all the guitarists in mainstream bands that play like Kurt Cobain?


Please don’t answer my question with another question.

I really want to know where is EVH´s and hair metal bands influence on rock guitar nowadays.
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