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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Luuk-DireStraits wrote:


Yes, I think it's time to place Chaplin ahead of Brando. The more I think about it, the more I think that he can be our #1.


I think that, if we go by the criteria, then he IS our number 1.
Not only is Chaplin the one who scores the most in the criteria, but it's not close. Brando suffers from a too uneven filmography and some pretty bad choices and so does Olivier. Chaplin is the definitive number 1 in cultural impact, influence and popularity, that's 3 out of 5.

In cultural impact he wins by light years: Not only is the Tramp the most famous image to come out of cinema, but his creator is without a doubt one of the greatest people of the 20th century and one of its defining icons.

Popularity? No other actor captured and enthralled the world as he did. Not only the most famous name in cinema, but for most people around the world - including those who have NEVER seen a Chaplin film -, he IS cinema.

Moreover, most of Chaplin's influence on acting is so ingrained within the medium that it is almost taken for granted. Way back in the day, the movies used to be very mechanical. What that meant was that the actor only got his point across with little or no emotion. If a man was to ask for a girls hand in marriage, the man would go to the girl's father, point to his finger, then point to the girl. He got his point across, but it was uninteresting and unrealistic the way he did so. What Charlie recognized was the need for feeling in one's acting. Not just conveying a point, but touching the audiences heart in doing so. If you go to see a movie, you expect the acting to have feeling, not just the actor reading his or her lines to the camera. That was what he did for drama films.

Now for comedy, he saw that a lot more could be done then just hitting each other over the head. When Charlie was at Keystone, none of the comedies had a plot whatsoever. It was two or three guys beaten each other up over a girl or money or something. So what Charlie did was he came up with a funny plot, therefore inventing situational comedy in the form of film. He also took situational irony and put it in films as well. So basically he took a stage play and formated it to fit with film. If you look at his early Keystone productions, and compare it to one of his independent shorts, you should see a drastic difference. One has a plot, one doesn't. He took what Linder was doing in France and made it into a universal dogma...and this is exactly why his acting still sound fresh and believable, compared to the more theatrically-influenced and rigid movies of his. He was serious and funny at the same time, and it was this blend of attitudes that elevated his comedy beyond film slapstick into the realm of artistry.

His influence on other media is undeniable as well, from mime to cartoons to avant-garde art movements, to the point where many, from George Bernard Shaw to Picasso, celebrated him as the greatest artist of his time.

I think if we go by the criteria, then he HAS to be our number 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:40 pm 
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Like Sherick, I say we shouldn't be rigorously following criteria especially when it comes to top places.
Despite his flaws, Brando is still the golden standard for movie acting and generally considered to be the greatest natural talent in his field although it's more subjective. I wouldn't push my order too hard on you guys but Chaplin at #1 doesn't feel right.
Although Brando is probably behind Chaplin in influence and cultural recognition but he's far beyond almost everyone else in these. And acclaim. No slight to Charlie but I do believe Brando takes it very comfortably.


Last edited by Tim on Tue May 09, 2017 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Quote:
Now for comedy, he saw that a lot more could be done then just hitting each other over the head. When Charlie was at Keystone, none of the comedies had a plot whatsoever. It was two or three guys beaten each other up over a girl or money or something. So what Charlie did was he came up with a funny plot, therefore inventing situational comedy in the form of film. He also took situational irony and put it in films as well. So basically he took a stage play and formated it to fit with film. If you look at his early Keystone productions, and compare it to one of his independent shorts, you should see a drastic difference. One has a plot, one doesn't. He took what Linder was doing in France and made it into a universal dogma...and this is exactly why his acting still sound fresh and believable, compared to the more theatrically-influenced and rigid movies of his. He was serious and funny at the same time, and it was this blend of attitudes that elevated his comedy beyond film slapstick into the realm of artistry.


This is all about his contributions as a filmmaker and has no relevance here.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:36 pm 
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To be honest, Chaplin is a top 3 director, but I'm not sure if he's top 5 actor, imo.

Anyway, I understand who thinks differently, the guy was great in everything he set out to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:43 am 
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I think Chaplin is definitely a top 5 actor. AyaMelie made a lot of good points, but as Sherick has pointed out, it's hard to determine where his merits as an actor end as where they begin as a filmmaker.

But in the end, there are three actors who truly revolutionized movie acting, and these are Chaplin, for the reasons AyaMelie has already pointed out, Olivier, for bringing a highly technical stage-like acting style to the screen, and Brando, for wildly popularizing method acting and indeed setting a future standard for film acting.

I think Chaplin indeed wins popularity quite big, he was one of the best-known people around the world; at least in the second half of the 1910s, everybody in the world knew who he was, and an enormous part of the world population had seen at least one of his films. There hasn't been an actor who was that well-known around the world since him. I'd say his filmography is stronger than Brando's as well, because as AyaMelie pointed out, Brando has made quite some bad choices. His reputation largely rests on about 10-15 films, whereas Chaplin's important films (short and feature) add up to about 35 films.

But I understand why Brando takes influence. Yes, Chaplin was important in the silent era - in hindsight, a short period in cinematic history. AyaMelie excellently pointed out how he introduced a more emotional acting style. But Brando was of influence on almost every (male) actor who came after him: De Niro, Pacino, Duvall, Hoffman, Nicholson, to name a few huge names. Chaplin's acting style was probably very theatrical in hindsight, and Brando was the actor that introduced realism in acting. In acclaim, I'd say that they are almost equals.

I'm not opposed to Brando being #1, but they're very close.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:53 pm 
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I suggest we move on, leaving Brando at the top for now.

1. Cary Grant
2. Henry Fonda
3. Dustin Hoffman
4. Alec Guinness
5. Jean Gabin
6. Tom Hanks
7. Gene Hackman
8. Gérard Depardieu
9. Clark Gable
10. Kirk Douglas
11. Morgan Freeman
12. Clint Eastwood
13. Leonardo DiCaprio
14. William Holden
15. Vittorio Gassman
16. Robert Duvall
17. Anthony Hopkins
18. Harrison Ford
19. Philip Seymour Hoffman
20. Dennis Hopper
21. Douglas Fairbanks
22. Johnny Depp
23. Errol Flynn
24. Albert Finney
25. Ralph Fiennes
26. John Gielgud
27. Richard Harris
28. Emil Jannings
29. John Hurt
30. Raj Kapoor
31. Charlton Heston
32. Michael Douglas
33. Samuel L. Jackson
34. Peter Finch
35. Rock Hudson
36. Sessue Hayakawa
37. Jeremy Irons
38. Erland Josephson
39. William Hurt
40. Richard Dreyfuss
41. William S. Hart
42. Ed Harris
43. Tommy Lee Jones
44. W.C. Fields
45. Ryan Gosling
46. José Ferrer
47. Bruno Ganz
48. John Gilbert
49. Bob Hope
50. Walter Huston
51. Melvyn Douglas
52. Rex Harrison
53. James Earl Jones
54. Jake Gyllenhaal
55. Mel Gibson
56. Bob Hoskins
57. Robert Downey, Jr.
58. Robert Donat
59. Giancarlo Giannini
60. Gael García Bernal
61. Brendan Gleeson
62. Leslie Howard
63. Edward Everett Horton
64. Sterling Hayden
65. Rutger Hauer
66. Michael Fassbender
67. John Goodman
68. Bruce Dern
69. Aldo Fabrizi
70. Curd Jürgens
71. Ian Holm
72. Colin Firth
73. Sydney Greenstreet
74. Alan Hale, Sr.
75. Chiwetel Ejiofor


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 2:46 pm 
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The top 5 are pretty close and I can see a lot of changes here. The same goes for the top 7-13, huge names too.

1. Cary Grant
2. Dustin Hoffman
3. Alec Guinness
4. Tom Hanks
5. Henry Fonda
6. Gene Hackman
7. Jean Gabin
8. Gérard Depardieu
9. Clark Gable
10. Kirk Douglas
11. Morgan Freeman
12. Clint Eastwood
13. Leonardo DiCaprio
14. William Holden
15. Vittorio Gassman
16. Robert Duvall
17. Anthony Hopkins
18. Harrison Ford
19. Philip Seymour Hoffman
20. Dennis Hopper
21. Douglas Fairbanks
22. Johnny Depp
23. Errol Flynn
24. Albert Finney
25. Ralph Fiennes
26. Richard Harris
27. John Gielgud
28. Emil Jannings
29. John Hurt
30. Raj Kapoor
31. Charlton Heston
32. Michael Douglas
33. Samuel L. Jackson
34. Peter Finch
35. Rock Hudson
36. Sessue Hayakawa
37. Jeremy Irons
38. Erland Josephson
39. William Hurt
40. Richard Dreyfuss
41. William S. Hart
42. Ed Harris
43. Tommy Lee Jones
44. Ryan Gosling
45. W.C. Fields
46. José Ferrer
47. Bruno Ganz
48. John Gilbert
49. Bob Hope
50. Walter Huston
51. Melvyn Douglas
52. Rex Harrison
53. James Earl Jones
54. Jake Gyllenhaal
55. Mel Gibson
56. Robert Downey, Jr.
57. Bob Hoskins
58. Robert Donat
59. Giancarlo Giannini
60. Gael García Bernal
61. Brendan Gleeson
62. Michael Fassbender
63. Leslie Howard
64. Edward Everett Horton
65. Sterling Hayden
66. Rutger Hauer
67. John Goodman
68. Bruce Dern
69. Aldo Fabrizi
70. Curd Jürgens
71. Ian Holm
72. Colin Firth
73. Sydney Greenstreet
74. Alan Hale, Sr.
75. Chiwetel Ejiofor


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:10 pm 
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I can't currently post long posts for some forum reason. But I think you are underrating Hoffman at this point, Luuk. He's of similar stature to De Niro, Pacino and Nicholson, most versatile out of them and arguably most influential for his breakthrough role in Graduate.

1. Dustin Hoffman
2. Cary Grant
3. Alec Guinness
4. Henry Fonda
5. Jean Gabin
6. Tom Hanks
7. Gerard Depardieu
8. Gene Hackman
9. Clark Gable
10. Kirk Douglas
11. Morgan Freeman
12. Clint Eastwood
13. Leonardo DiCaprio
14. Vittorio Gassman
15. Robert Duval
16. William Holden
17. Anthony Hopkins
18. Harrison Ford
19. Douglas Fairbanks
20. Johnny Depp


Last edited by Tim on Tue May 09, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Interesting read touching on Hoffman's importance: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film ... redit.html


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:30 pm 
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If we compare Hoffman, Guinness and Fonda, I guess I'm fine with your order, Tim.

Acclaim:
1. Hoffman
2. Guinness
3. Fonda

Influence:
1. Hoffman
2. Fonda/Guinness (I guess neither of them is an essential influential actor.)

Popularity/cultural recognition
1. Fonda
2. Hoffman
3. Guinness

Body of work:
1. Fonda
2. Guinness
3. Hoffman

(The last order might seem strange, but in all fairness, Hoffman has made only a handful of impressive films since 1990, and most of his performances since then are equally unimpressive.)


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:36 pm 
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I can't see Hoffman ahead of Grant, though.

Grant beats Hoffman very big in both popularity/cultural recognition and body of work. I'm not saying that Dustin scores bad in these two categories, it's just that Cary scores huge there. Hoffman wins acclaim, but we all know how often Grant got snubbed by the Academy. I think most of us agree that he deserved a least half a dozen nominations, if not many more. He received an Honorary Academy Award pretty early to make up for these mistakes. And in terms of influence, Hoffman probably wins, but I can see some influence for Grant as well; he was the definitive screwball actor, and later on in his career set a standard for charming, grey-haired, romantic leading men - Clooney is of course almost a direct copy of Grant.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:42 pm 
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I don't mind Grant over Hoffman, he's an absolute legend. Are we ok with Gibson so low? Huge star for two decades with many classics in his resume (mostly in action genre but still)


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:52 pm 
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His body of work is solid, but not truly impressive, as is his popularity. He probably takes some influence as an Australian actor who made it big in Hollywood, but he doesn't have very much acclaim. I think by now, especially when we take into account his work since 2000, his career is overall pretty mediocre. He deserves a spot on the list, but I'm fine with him being somewhere in the middle/bottom half.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 3:55 pm 
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If we go by Money Making Stars Poll his popularity is pretty remarkable (13 appearances in top ten). I'd have him and Downey ahead of Gyllenhaal at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Movie Actors (Revision)
PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Tiny Tim wrote:
If we go by Money Making Stars Poll his popularity is pretty remarkable (13 appearances in top ten). I'd have him and Downey ahead of Gyllenhaal at least.

Sounds good.

What about Hanks vs. Fonda/Gabin?


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