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Leaderboard, through 9/1:

NL MVP
LAD CF Matt Kemp
CIN 1B Joey Votto
MIL LF Ryan Braun
COL SS Troy Tulowitzki
PHI CF Shane Victorino
PIT CF Andrew McCutchen
ARI RF Justin Upton
STL LF Matt Holliday
STL 1B Albert Pujols
NYM SS Jose Reyes

AL MVP
TOR RF Jose Bautista
BOS CF Jacoby Ellsbury
BOS 2B Dustin Pedroia
NYY CF Curtis Granderson
BOS 1B Adrian Gonzalez
KC LF Alex Gordon
TB 2B Ben Zobrist
DET 1B Miguel Cabrera
DET C Alex Avila
TEX 2B Ian Kinsler

NL Cy Young
PHI Roy Halladay
PHI Cliff Lee
LAD Clayton Kershaw
PHI Cole Hamels
SF Matt Cain
SF Tim Lincecum
ARI Ian Kennedy
CIN Johnny Cueto
SF Madison Bumgarner
ATL Craig Kimbrel

AL Cy Young
DET Justin Verlander
NYY CC Sabathia
LAA Jered Weaver
SEA Felix Hernandez
BOS Josh Beckett
CLE Justin Masterson
LAA Dan Haren
TB James Shields
TEX CJ Wilson
DET Doug Fister

NL Rookie
ATL RP Craig Kimbrel
WAS 2B Danny Espinosa
ARI SP Josh Collmenter
PHI SP Vance Worley
WAS C Wilson Ramos

AL Rookie
SEA SP Michael Pineda
SEA 2B Dustin Ackley
TB SP Jeremy Hellickson
TB LF Desmond Jennings
LAA 1B Mark Trumbo

chicken sandwich wrote:

pgm wrote:

Phillies need a left-handed hitter off the bench (particularly one capable of hitting homeruns). More importantly, they need a DH in the World Series.

seriously? The Phillies have Raul Ibanez coming off the bench, you guys are fine. And by the way, you know your team is doing fine when you're complaining about the status of the bench. You guys also have Domonic Brown in the minors, a guy that would probably starting for 50% of MLB teams right now, so no complaining!

He's terrible though.

monga18 wrote:

Ridiculously overrated. No way he's ahead of Ogando. Also no way Jennings has been up long enough to be on the list.

corrections wrote:

chicken sandwich wrote:

pgm wrote:

Phillies need a left-handed hitter off the bench (particularly one capable of hitting homeruns). More importantly, they need a DH in the World Series.

He's terrible though.

67 RBIs, has a career OBP of like .350

i could see glancing at some stats and making an incorrect statement like the one above, but it's a fool who says ibanez is anything but the glue that holds a team together. he's also a fan favorite and an overall great guy

corrections wrote:

monga18 wrote:

AL Rookie
SEA SP Michael Pineda
SEA 2B Dustin Ackley
TB SP Jeremy Hellickson
TB LF Desmond Jennings
LAA 1B Mark Trumbo

Ridiculously overrated. No way he's ahead of Ogando. Also no way Jennings has been up long enough to be on the list.

Ogando isn't eligible, he pitched under 50 innings last season but he was on the MLB roster for much more than 45 games (he was a middle reliever last season). With that said Jordan Walden isn't a guy you should sleep on, I doubt he beats Trumbo or Hellickson (who imo is the clear cut winner) but he's had a very nice season as the Angels closer. There's also Hosmer and Ivan Nova.

Judging a 39-year-old by his career numbers is kind of a rookie mistake dont you think?

Ibanez's OBP this year is .288, which is unforgivably bad. He's always been one of the worst fielders in MLB. He sucks.

corrections wrote:

chicken sandwich wrote:

pgm wrote:

Phillies need a left-handed hitter off the bench (particularly one capable of hitting homeruns). More importantly, they need a DH in the World Series.

He's terrible though.

y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs?

'rex he wasn't benched he had a groin injury and y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs? he's getting old but his presence on the team is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that only conceivable way you could say he sucks is relative to the rest of the phillies team which is laying a complete smackdown on the league atm

Patrick wrote:

y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs?

That's 'cause RBIs are a horrible measure of individual talent and production. Por ejemplo, Phillies' "star" Ryan Howard has 106 RBIs this year which is good for 2nd place in the MLB, and just one RBI behind the co-leaders (C.Granderson & P. Fielder). However, Howard is a horrible contact hitter and has mediocre plate discipline (huge strikeout rate without a lot of walks to counteract it); his poor base-running and poor defense while playing the easiest defensive position on the field* combined with the aforementioned holes in his hitting equal a pretty average player, and nowhere near the likes of Granderson or Fielder, value-wise. Howard is a great (though no longer elite) power hitter and he's fortunate enough to hit behind Shane Victorino, Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins**, who all do good job of getting on base and providing Howard plenty of RBI opportunities. Other than swing (and miss) really hard and occasionally hit balls really far, he (Howard) doesn't really do a whole lot***. And basically, Ibanez is far worse than Howard, so take that as you will.

*And subsequently a position where great offensive production is essentially required for the player to be very valuable. Relative to other first-basemen around the league, Howard's offensive production is mediocre, behind the likes of such sluggers as Michael Morse, Casey Kotchman and Gaby Sanchez in terms of WAR.

**All three of these guys have been more valuable (again, WAR-wise) to the Phillies this year than Howard, yet only Rollins is within 50 RBIs of Howard this year (58).

***Especially for the ludicrous amount of money he's making annually. Lolocaust@ that contract.

Author:	corrections [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
monga18 wrote: Leaderboard, through 9/1: NL MVP LAD CF Matt Kemp CIN 1B Joey Votto MIL LF Ryan Braun COL SS Troy Tulowitzki PHI CF Shane Victorino PIT CF Andrew McCutchen ARI RF Justin Upton STL LF Matt Holliday STL 1B Albert Pujols NYM SS Jose Reyes AL MVP TOR RF Jose Bautista BOS CF Jacoby Ellsbury BOS 2B Dustin Pedroia NYY CF Curtis Granderson BOS 1B Adrian Gonzalez KC LF Alex Gordon TB 2B Ben Zobrist DET 1B Miguel Cabrera DET C Alex Avila TEX 2B Ian Kinsler NL Cy Young PHI Roy Halladay PHI Cliff Lee LAD Clayton Kershaw PHI Cole Hamels SF Matt Cain SF Tim Lincecum ARI Ian Kennedy CIN Johnny Cueto SF Madison Bumgarner ATL Craig Kimbrel AL Cy Young DET Justin Verlander NYY CC Sabathia LAA Jered Weaver SEA Felix Hernandez BOS Josh Beckett CLE Justin Masterson LAA Dan Haren TB James Shields TEX CJ Wilson DET Doug Fister NL Rookie ATL RP Craig Kimbrel WAS 2B Danny Espinosa ARI SP Josh Collmenter PHI SP Vance Worley WAS C Wilson Ramos AL Rookie SEA SP Michael Pineda SEA 2B Dustin Ackley TB SP Jeremy Hellickson TB LF Desmond Jennings LAA 1B Mark Trumbo Ridiculously overrated. No way he's ahead of Ogando. Also no way Jennings has been up long enough to be on the list.

Author:	Patrick [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
corrections wrote: chicken sandwich wrote: pgm wrote: Phillies need a left-handed hitter off the bench (particularly one capable of hitting homeruns). More importantly, they need a DH in the World Series. seriously? The Phillies have Raul Ibanez coming off the bench, you guys are fine. And by the way, you know your team is doing fine when you're complaining about the status of the bench. You guys also have Domonic Brown in the minors, a guy that would probably starting for 50% of MLB teams right now, so no complaining! He's terrible though. 67 RBIs, has a career OBP of like .350 i could see glancing at some stats and making an incorrect statement like the one above, but it's a fool who says ibanez is anything but the glue that holds a team together. he's also a fan favorite and an overall great guy

Author:	Patrick [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
88-46

Author:	chicken sandwich [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
corrections wrote: monga18 wrote: Leaderboard, through 9/1: NL MVP LAD CF Matt Kemp CIN 1B Joey Votto MIL LF Ryan Braun COL SS Troy Tulowitzki PHI CF Shane Victorino PIT CF Andrew McCutchen ARI RF Justin Upton STL LF Matt Holliday STL 1B Albert Pujols NYM SS Jose Reyes AL MVP TOR RF Jose Bautista BOS CF Jacoby Ellsbury BOS 2B Dustin Pedroia NYY CF Curtis Granderson BOS 1B Adrian Gonzalez KC LF Alex Gordon TB 2B Ben Zobrist DET 1B Miguel Cabrera DET C Alex Avila TEX 2B Ian Kinsler NL Cy Young PHI Roy Halladay PHI Cliff Lee LAD Clayton Kershaw PHI Cole Hamels SF Matt Cain SF Tim Lincecum ARI Ian Kennedy CIN Johnny Cueto SF Madison Bumgarner ATL Craig Kimbrel AL Cy Young DET Justin Verlander NYY CC Sabathia LAA Jered Weaver SEA Felix Hernandez BOS Josh Beckett CLE Justin Masterson LAA Dan Haren TB James Shields TEX CJ Wilson DET Doug Fister NL Rookie ATL RP Craig Kimbrel WAS 2B Danny Espinosa ARI SP Josh Collmenter PHI SP Vance Worley WAS C Wilson Ramos AL Rookie SEA SP Michael Pineda SEA 2B Dustin Ackley TB SP Jeremy Hellickson TB LF Desmond Jennings LAA 1B Mark Trumbo Ridiculously overrated. No way he's ahead of Ogando. Also no way Jennings has been up long enough to be on the list. Ogando isn't eligible, he pitched under 50 innings last season but he was on the MLB roster for much more than 45 games (he was a middle reliever last season). With that said Jordan Walden isn't a guy you should sleep on, I doubt he beats Trumbo or Hellickson (who imo is the clear cut winner) but he's had a very nice season as the Angels closer. There's also Hosmer and Ivan Nova.

Author:	monga18 [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Patrick wrote: corrections wrote: chicken sandwich wrote: pgm wrote: Phillies need a left-handed hitter off the bench (particularly one capable of hitting homeruns). More importantly, they need a DH in the World Series. seriously? The Phillies have Raul Ibanez coming off the bench, you guys are fine. And by the way, you know your team is doing fine when you're complaining about the status of the bench. You guys also have Domonic Brown in the minors, a guy that would probably starting for 50% of MLB teams right now, so no complaining! He's terrible though. 67 RBIs, has a career OBP of like .350 i could see glancing at some stats and making an incorrect statement like the one above, but it's a fool who says ibanez is anything but the glue that holds a team together. he's also a fan favorite and an overall great guy Judging a 39-year-old by his career numbers is kind of a rookie mistake dont you think? Ibanez's OBP this year is .288, which is unforgivably bad. He's always been one of the worst fielders in MLB. He sucks.

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Author:	monga18 [ Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
chicken sandwich wrote: corrections wrote: monga18 wrote: AL Rookie SEA SP Michael Pineda SEA 2B Dustin Ackley TB SP Jeremy Hellickson TB LF Desmond Jennings LAA 1B Mark Trumbo Ridiculously overrated. No way he's ahead of Ogando. Also no way Jennings has been up long enough to be on the list. Ogando isn't eligible, he pitched under 50 innings last season but he was on the MLB roster for much more than 45 games (he was a middle reliever last season). With that said Jordan Walden isn't a guy you should sleep on, I doubt he beats Trumbo or Hellickson (who imo is the clear cut winner) but he's had a very nice season as the Angels closer. There's also Hosmer and Ivan Nova. - Ogando would be the winner by a good margin if he were eligible. But he's not. - Jennings has only been up for 39 games, but he's been ridiculously productive in those 39 games (dead even 1.000 OPS). I don't believe players should be punished for the poor decision making of their organizations, and that they should be judged based on aggregate production. Most people will probably disagree in this case, and I don't expect him to be a factor in the voting. - Fangraphs' WAR hates Hellickson, probably due to his low-ish strikeout rate. He's got the ERA to contend for the award but I don't see how he beats Pineda, who throws harder and struck out 50% more batters, and has essentially the same W-L (9-8 vs 11-10) for a much worse team. (I don't remotely care about the W-L but voters will.) - Walden and Nova just missed the cut. - Hosmer suffers from Freddie Freeman disease, wherein their atrocious defense (even at first) wipes out more than half the value of their offensive production.

Author:	pgm [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Ibanez is not a backup at this point. They're starting him against right-handed pitchers (like last night). He's been better in the second half of the season, but not great. And the Phillies really could use a left-handed bat off the bench (and a DH). Anyway, I believe Thome is back to Cleveland and he'll probably retire there. I can't really complain about that. That's probably where he belongs.

Author:	corrections [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Patrick wrote: corrections wrote: chicken sandwich wrote: pgm wrote: Phillies need a left-handed hitter off the bench (particularly one capable of hitting homeruns). More importantly, they need a DH in the World Series. seriously? The Phillies have Raul Ibanez coming off the bench, you guys are fine. And by the way, you know your team is doing fine when you're complaining about the status of the bench. You guys also have Domonic Brown in the minors, a guy that would probably starting for 50% of MLB teams right now, so no complaining! He's terrible though. 67 RBIs, has a career OBP of like .350 i could see glancing at some stats and making an incorrect statement like the one above, but it's a fool who says ibanez is anything but the glue that holds a team together. he's also a fan favorite and an overall great guy His career numbers are irrelevant. He's been awful this year. Which is why he's banished to the bench. And he's playing at an offense premium position where he has no excuse to be playing like he is.

Author:	pgm [ Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
He hasn't really been relegated to the bench. He started again today and went 2-6 in a 14 inning game. The Phillies lost again, btw, but the game is in protest. Basically, a double was changed to an out on a replay. But replays are for homeruns are balls that look like they're going to be homeruns. I don't expect the game to be replayed, although it may be voided.

Author:	Patrick [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
'rex he wasn't benched he had a groin injury and y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs? he's getting old but his presence on the team is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that only conceivable way you could say he sucks is relative to the rest of the phillies team which is laying a complete smackdown on the league atm

Author:	Paulie [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Patrick wrote: y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs? That's 'cause RBIs are a horrible measure of individual talent and production. Por ejemplo, Phillies' "star" Ryan Howard has 106 RBIs this year which is good for 2nd place in the MLB, and just one RBI behind the co-leaders (C.Granderson & P. Fielder). However, Howard is a horrible contact hitter and has mediocre plate discipline (huge strikeout rate without a lot of walks to counteract it); his poor base-running and poor defense while playing the easiest defensive position on the field* combined with the aforementioned holes in his hitting equal a pretty average player, and nowhere near the likes of Granderson or Fielder, value-wise. Howard is a great (though no longer elite) power hitter and he's fortunate enough to hit behind Shane Victorino, Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins, who all do good job of getting on base and providing Howard plenty of RBI opportunities. Other than swing (and miss) really hard and occasionally hit balls really far, he (Howard) doesn't really do a whole lot. And basically, Ibanez is far worse than Howard, so take that as you will. And subsequently a position where great offensive production is essentially required for the player to be very valuable. Relative to other first-basemen around the league, Howard's offensive production is mediocre, behind the likes of such sluggers as Michael Morse, Casey Kotchman and Gaby Sanchez in terms of WAR. All three of these guys have been more valuable (again, WAR-wise) to the Phillies this year than Howard, yet only Rollins is within 50 RBIs of Howard this year (58). *Especially for the ludicrous amount of money he's making annually. Lolocaust@ that contract.

Author:	pgm [ Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Howard is the only guy in Philly who really does that role. He's 4th on the team in OPS. He also leads the team in games played since most of the Phillies (especially Rollins and Victorino) have spent time on the DL. But honestly, you under appreciate his value in this lineup. Jimmy Rollins has a lower on-base percentage, yet you say he's more valuable than Howard. At best, they're equal and neither are the most valuable on the team.

Author:	corrections [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Patrick wrote: 'rex he wasn't benched he had a groin injury and y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs? he's getting old but his presence on the team is a good thing, not a bad thing, and that only conceivable way you could say he sucks is relative to the rest of the phillies team which is laying a complete smackdown on the league atm No he sucks period. RBIs don't really measure anything. They're a worse stat than average, which is pretty bad.

Author:	corrections [ Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Paulie wrote: Patrick wrote: y'all don't have nothing to say about them RBIs? That's 'cause RBIs are a horrible measure of individual talent and production. Por ejemplo, Phillies' "star" Ryan Howard has 106 RBIs this year which is good for 2nd place in the MLB, and just one RBI behind the co-leaders (C.Granderson & P. Fielder). However, Howard is a horrible contact hitter and has mediocre plate discipline (huge strikeout rate without a lot of walks to counteract it); his poor base-running and poor defense while playing the easiest defensive position on the field* combined with the aforementioned holes in his hitting equal a pretty average player, and nowhere near the likes of Granderson or Fielder, value-wise. Howard is a great (though no longer elite) power hitter and he's fortunate enough to hit behind Shane Victorino, Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins, who all do good job of getting on base and providing Howard plenty of RBI opportunities. Other than swing (and miss) really hard and occasionally hit balls really far, he (Howard) doesn't really do a whole lot. And basically, Ibanez is far worse than Howard, so take that as you will. And subsequently a position where great offensive production is essentially required for the player to be very valuable. Relative to other first-basemen around the league, Howard's offensive production is mediocre, behind the likes of such sluggers as Michael Morse, Casey Kotchman and Gaby Sanchez in terms of WAR. All three of these guys have been more valuable (again, WAR-wise) to the Phillies this year than Howard, yet only Rollins is within 50 RBIs of Howard this year (58). Especially for the ludicrous amount of money he's making annually. Lolocaust@ that contract*. What's even better is the extension hasn't even kicked in yet so it's five more years of decline from this.

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