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Batista might be hitting like Barry Bonds of the early 90s (still amazing, btw) he's nowhere near the level Bonds reached in the 2000s.

AL MVP
TOR RF Jose Bautista
BOS CF Jacoby Ellsbury
BOS 2B Dustin Pedroia
NYY CF Curtis Granderson
BOS 1B Adrian Gonzalez
KC LF Alex Gordon
TB 2B Ben Zobrist
DET 1B Miguel Cabrera
DET C Alex Avila
TEX 2B Ian Kinsler

more like AL Shitral

all that I'm saying is that Verlanders season is just as impressive as Bautistas, and even as as a starting pitcher he should be considered heavily for the MVP award. Like I said I don't understand why homeruns and run production carry more weight than pitchers stats when considering value, starting pitchers can be just as valuable to a team as hitters, and as you can see Verlander is on pace for the best pitchin season in. Long while and is almost by himself leading his team to the playoffs, which Bautista is not.

Verlander has had a great year and he's really fun to watch but I think you're exaggerating a bit when you say he's on pace for the best pitching season in a long while. Just a few years ago Zack Greinke was even better.

Obviously he's had help, Cabrera is probably a stronger mvp candidate than Verlander.

Quote:

Obviously he's had help, Cabrera is probably a stronger mvp candidate than Verlander.

Well if that's the case then Verlander isn't any kind of candidate. Cabrera hasn't been as valuable as the Red Sox trio or Granderson, let alone Bautista.

the WAR figures on baseball-reference are vastly different, according to BR Verlander's 2009 WAR was 5.6, not 8.3. Greinke's 2009 was impressive but he only mustered 16 wins. I'm not sure why you guys are being so obstinate, Verlander's pitching an amazing season.

Paulie wrote:

Or Cliff Lee. Or many Roy Halladay seasons. What about some of those Johan Minny seasons. Obviously the buck stops completely when you go back to Pedro.

corrections wrote:

Paulie wrote:

Or Cliff Lee. Or many Roy Halladay seasons. What about some of those Johan Minny seasons. Obviously the buck stops completely when you go back to Pedro.

buck doesn't completely stop until you go back to gibson

Author:	corrections [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Paulie wrote: Batista might be hitting like Barry Bonds of the early 90s (still amazing, btw) he's nowhere near the level Bonds reached in the 2000s. No not quite that good. But seeing as how only Ruth has ever come close to that I think we can give him a pass.

Author:	chicken sandwich [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
all that I'm saying is that Verlanders season is just as impressive as Bautistas, and even as as a starting pitcher he should be considered heavily for the MVP award. Like I said I don't understand why homeruns and run production carry more weight than pitchers stats when considering value, starting pitchers can be just as valuable to a team as hitters, and as you can see Verlander is on pace for the best pitchin season in. Long while and is almost by himself leading his team to the playoffs, which Bautista is not.

Author:	monga18 [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Quote: AL MVP TOR RF Jose Bautista BOS CF Jacoby Ellsbury BOS 2B Dustin Pedroia NYY CF Curtis Granderson BOS 1B Adrian Gonzalez KC LF Alex Gordon TB 2B Ben Zobrist DET 1B Miguel Cabrera DET C Alex Avila TEX 2B Ian Kinsler Quote: more like AL Shitral Quote: by himself

Author:	Paulie [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Verlander has had a great year and he's really fun to watch but I think you're exaggerating a bit when you say he's on pace for the best pitching season in a long while. Just a few years ago Zack Greinke was even better.

Author:	corrections [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
chicken sandwich wrote: all that I'm saying is that Verlanders season is just as impressive as Bautistas, and even as as a starting pitcher he should be considered heavily for the MVP award. Like I said I don't understand why homeruns and run production carry more weight than pitchers stats when considering value, starting pitchers can be just as valuable to a team as hitters, and as you can see Verlander is on pace for the best pitchin season in. Long while and is almost by himself leading his team to the playoffs, which Bautista is not. So many fallacies in one post it's tough to address. It isn't necessarily that Verlander isn't deserving and I'm willing to entertain arguments for him. But he's not transcendent and the quality of his performance has not matched up all time with pitchers the way Bautistas' has for hitters. I don't see why you keep focusing on the homeruns. Being dismissive of run production is stupid and shows a startling denigration of the most important position players skill. Bautista has less effect in a given game than Verlander. But Verlander only pitches every five games so his effect is diluted by inaction. Bautista effects his team every day. And you can't blame him for his teammates performance and you especially can't blame him for being in a division that is about 5 times as good as the AL Central and where his team playing the central schedule could have competed with Detroit. It isn't the best pitching season in a long while. Maybe it's the best pitching season in 5 years but I've seen a very excellent article that points out when you adjust for park factor, luck stats, and quality of opposition that Sabbathia has had just as good of a year.

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Author:	corrections [ Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Paulie wrote: Verlander has had a great year and he's really fun to watch but I think you're exaggerating a bit when you say he's on pace for the best pitching season in a long while. Just a few years ago Zack Greinke was even better. Or Cliff Lee. Or many Roy Halladay seasons. What about some of those Johan Minny seasons. Obviously the buck stops completely when you go back to Pedro.

Author:	chicken sandwich [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
when I said "best season in a while" I meant back to the days of Pedro and Randy Johnson. If Verlander keeps up his pace it will be a better season than Roy Halladay or Cliff Lee ever had- more wins, strikeouts, less h/9 and a much lower whip than both. Santana's years were probably just as good and The only point i'm really trying to make is that the MVP award should go to the best player, not just the best hitter. It's my opinion that Verlander's season is possibly the greatest performance of the year, trumped only by Kemp and Bautista and should be a top 3 contender for the award. I'm not arguing here, i'm simply saying that Verlander has a strong case. and btw when I said "by himself" I meant in terms of the rotation, not the lineup. Obviously he's had help, Cabrera is probably a stronger mvp candidate than Verlander.

Author:	monga18 [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Quote: Obviously he's had help, Cabrera is probably a stronger mvp candidate than Verlander. Well if that's the case then Verlander isn't any kind of candidate. Cabrera hasn't been as valuable as the Red Sox trio or Granderson, let alone Bautista.

Author:	lonewolf371 [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
Cool Chart Verlander needs another 1.9 WAR just to catch up to himself in '09. He then would need quite a bit more to catch Schilling and Greinke. I doubt he'll get to the point where it's the best season since Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez.

Author:	lonewolf371 [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
chicken sandwich wrote: the WAR figures on baseball-reference are vastly different, according to BR Verlander's 2009 WAR was 5.6, not 8.3. Greinke's 2009 was impressive but he only mustered 16 wins. I'm not sure why you guys are being so obstinate, Verlander's pitching an amazing season. The WAR figures on baseball reference take into account fewer factors than FanGraphs. FanGraphs is pretty much the gold standard for all sabermetric statistics. And we agree that Verlander has had a great season; you're just descending into a bit of a hyperbole.

Author:	kosherrock [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
corrections wrote: Paulie wrote: Verlander has had a great year and he's really fun to watch but I think you're exaggerating a bit when you say he's on pace for the best pitching season in a long while. Just a few years ago Zack Greinke was even better. Or Cliff Lee. Or many Roy Halladay seasons. What about some of those Johan Minny seasons. Obviously the buck stops completely when you go back to Pedro. buck doesn't completely stop until you go back to gibson

Author:	Paulie [ Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: MLB.
kosherrock wrote: corrections wrote: Paulie wrote: Verlander has had a great year and he's really fun to watch but I think you're exaggerating a bit when you say he's on pace for the best pitching season in a long while. Just a few years ago Zack Greinke was even better. Or Cliff Lee. Or many Roy Halladay seasons. What about some of those Johan Minny seasons. Obviously the buck stops completely when you go back to Pedro. buck doesn't completely stop until you go back to gibson Also yeah, Fangraphs WAR>BR, though it's not as different for pitchers as it is for hitters. Alsox2, wins are about as bad a measurement of individual talent/production as RBIs are for hitters, so the fact that Greinke "only" won 16 games is pretty irrelevant when you're talking about the quality of his 09 season.

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