Polling of writers late in the season showed deGrom winning it easily.

ESPN predictor is based on past trends. I think most agree this is a weird year. I bet it'll be closer than the early polling because I suspect the "wins matter" crowd are less likely to respond to those polls. But I still think DeGromme wins. The big thing is that Scherzer and Nola didn't distinguish themselves by making the playoffs. Nola was ahead in bWAR, but only by 0.9, which is barely more than a tie. (I'm ok with favoring bWAR over fWAR in this case, but I don't think his bWAR is better by enough of a margin to ignore the rest.) There's also the idea among some in the press that DeGromme was in such a shitty situation that he almost deserves the Cy Young for putting up with it all. I think he was the best pitcher this year and I'm ok with putting the death nail in caring about wins in an era where pitchers rarely pitch complete games.

The reasons that Nola was ahead of deGrom in bWAR were.....

A - He only allowed one unearned run all season. bWAR uses runs allowed rather than earned runs allowed.

B - The Phillies fielding was absolutely horrendous, much worse than the Mets bad fielding, so Nola gets credit for doing with he did with putrid fielding behind him.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Babe Ruth was a great pitcher. Pitching is a bigger part of defense than fielding.

fWAR also includes fielding, though. My understanding is that fWAR uses three true outcomes to compare to replacements, while bWAR is more focused on actual result. fWAR is better for projecting future performance, but the creators of bWAR believe it's more reflective of what actually happened. It essentially treats Nola as getting better fielding luck. I'm skeptical of that because he was really good at getting weak contact and the Phillies defense was, as you said, terrible. But I don't consider 0.9 difference in bWAR to really matter enough that I won't give DeGrom's 3.2 win margin in fWAR the edge.

DeGrom was hurt by Citi being the best pitcher's park in the majors this year. He's good on both the home and the road, but he couldn't get run support at home. I know it's pretty counter-intuitive, but he got no run support at home and was 6-3 on the road.

Sad to see Adrian Beltre retire but he had a hell of a run and should be in first ballot.

ESPN SportsCentury 100 Greatest Athletes (1999-2000)

ESPN.com: Top N. American athletes of the century
https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html

SportsCentury - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SportsCentury

MLB (23)

01. # 2 – Babe Ruth
02. # 7 – Jim Thorpe
03. # 8 – Willie Mays
04. # 14 – Hank Aaron
05. # 15 – Jackie Robinson
06. # 16 – Ted Williams
07. # 20 – Ty Cobb
08. # 22 – Joe DiMaggio
09. # 34 – Lou Gehrig
10. # 37 – Mickey Mantle
11. # 42 – Sandy Koufax
12. # 56 – Pete Rose
13. # 60 – Walter Johnson
14. # 61 – Stan Musial
15. # 63 – Satchel Paige
16. # 67 – Bob Gibson
17. # 71 – Roberto Clemente
18. # 72 – Bo Jackson
19. # 73 – Josh Gibson
20. # 74 – Deion Sanders
21. # 77 – Cy Young
22. # 83 – Honus Wagner
23. # 89 – Rogers Hornsby

Just finished revising and updating my list of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players of All Time:

I mainly used WAR, JAWS, and WAR per 162 for this. Gave credit for Military years during wars. Deducted a bit from 19th century guys.

RANK..PLAYER
1 - Babe Ruth
2 - Willie Mays
3 - Barry Bonds
4 - Ted Williams
5 - Ty Cobb
6 - Rogers Hornsby
7 - Walter Johnson
8 - Honus Wagner
9 - Tris Speaker
10 - Lou Gehrig
11 - Josh Gibson
12 - Cy Young
13 - Hank Aaron
14 - Stan Musial
15 - Mickey Mantle
16 - Eddie Collins
17 - Roger Clemens
18 - Mike Schmidt
19 - Joe DiMaggio
20 - Oscar Charleston
21 - Mike Trout
22 - Alex Rodriguez
23 - Nap Lajoie
24 - Lefty Grove
25 - Grover C. Alexander
26 - Kid Nichols
27 - Mel Ott
28 - Christy Mathewson
29 - Frank Robinson
30 - Eddie Mathews
31 - Jimmie Foxx
32 - Rickey Henderson
33 - Tom Seaver
34 - Joe Morgan
35 - Jackie Robinson
36 - Randy Johnson
37 - Pedro Martinez
38 - Pop Lloyd
39 - Willie Wells
40 - Albert Pujols
41 - Roberto Clemente
42 - Turkey Stearnes
43 - Cap Anson
44 - Arky Vaughan
45 - Greg Maddux
46 - Bullet Rogan
47 - Joe Jackson
48 - Wade Boggs
49 - Cal Ripken Jr.
50 - George Brett
51 - Bob Gibson
52 - Satchel Paige
53 - Hank Greenberg
54 - Johnny Bench
55 - Charlie Gehringer
56 - Al Kaline
57 - Jeff Bagwell
58 - Clayton Kershaw
59 - Chipper Jones
60 - Carl Yastrzemski
61 - Warren Spahn
62 - Buck Leonard
63 - Mule Suttles
64 - Ross Barnes
65 - Dan Brouthers
66 - Roger Connor
67 - George Davis
68 - Ed Delahanty
69 - Johnny Mize
70 - Adrian Beltre
71 - Ken Griffey Jr.
72 - Rod Carew
73 - Dobie Moore
74 - Eddie Plank
75 - Home Run Baker
76 - Bert Blyleven
77 - Steve Carlton
78 - Gaylord Perry
79 - Bill Foster
80 - Mookie Betts
81 - Luke Appling
82 - Gary Carter
83 - Duke Snider
84 - Al Simmons
85 - Mariano Rivera
86 - Yogi Berra
87 - Mike Piazza
88.- Larry Walker
89 - Lou Boudreau
90 - Frank Thomas
91 - Billy Hamilton
92 - Jacob deGrom
93 - Robin Yount
94 - Harry Heillman
95 - Carl Hubbell
96 - Mickey Cochrane
97 - Roy Campanella
98 - Bill Dickey
99 - Ed Walsh
100 - Buck Ewing

WAR per 162.

First by position. Every player who was at least 5.0 WAR per 162.

CATCHER
Josh Gibson - 10.5
Buck Ewing - 5.9
Charlie Bennett - 5.9
Johnny Bench - 5.6
Mickey Cochrane - 5.5
Buster Posey - 5.3
Thurman Munson - 5.2
Bill Dickey - 5.1
Mike Piazza - 5.0

FIRST BASE
Lou Gehrig - 8.5
Buck Leonard - 7.9
Dan Brouthers - 7.7
Roger Connor - 6.8
Mule Suttles - 6.6
Jimmie Foxx - 6.5
Hank Greenberg - 6.5
Cal McVey - 6.2
Cap Anson - 6.1
Johnny Mize - 6.1
Jeff Bagwell - 6.0
Frank Chance - 5.8
Dave Orr - 5.7
Paul Goldschmidt - 5.6
Joey Votto - 5.5
Albert Pujols - 5.4
Mark McGwire - 5.4
Bill Terry - 5.3
Matt Olson - 5.1

SECOND BASE
Rogers Hornsby - 9.1
Ross Barnes - 9.1
Jackie Robinson - 7.3
Eddie Collins - 7.1
Nap Lajoie - 7.0
Fred Dunlap - 6.2
Joe Morgan - 6.1
Charlie Gehringer - 5.9
Joe Gordon - 5.8
Bobby Grich - 5.7
Dustin Pedroia - 5.6
Chase Utley - 5.4
George Scales - 5.4
Rod Carew - 5.3
Eddie Stanky - 5.3
Brandon Lowe - 5.3
Ryne Sandberg - 5.1
Lou Whitaker - 5.1
Robinson Cano - 5.0
Frankie Frisch - 5.0
Hardy Richardson - 5.0

SHORT STOP
Dobie Moore - 8.8
Willie Wells - 8.0
Honus Wagner - 7.6
Carlos Correa - 7.3
Arky Vaughan - 7.0
John Beckwith - 6.9
Alex Rodriguez - 6.8
George Wright - 6.4
Lou Boudreau - 6.3
Dick Lundy - 5.9
George Davis - 5.8
Jack Glasscock - 5.8
Trevor Story - 5.8
Trea Turner - 5.8
Troy Tulowitzki - 5.6
Francisco Lindor - 5.6
Corey Seager - 5.4
Hughie Jennings - 5.3
Pop Lloyd - 5.3
Cal Ripken Jr. - 5.2
Luke Appling - 5.2
Barry Larkin - 5.2
Pee Wee Reese - 5.1
Andrelton Simmons - 5.1
Martin Dihigo - 5.1
Alan Trammell - 5.1
Bill Dahlen - 5.0
Nomar Garciaparra - 5.0
Art Fletcher - 5.0
Charlie Hollocher - 5.0

THIRD BASE
Mike Schmidt - 7.2
John McGraw - 6.7
Eddie Mathews - 6.5
Home Run Baker - 6.5
Alex Bregman - 6.5
Matt Chapman - 6.5
Jud Wilson - 6.2
Wade Boggs - 6.1
Josh Donaldson - 6.0
Levi Meyerle - 6.0
Nolan Arenado - 5.8
Manny Machado - 5.7
Jose Ramirez - 5.7
Scott Rolen - 5.6
Chipper Jones - 5.5
Bill Joyce - 5.5
Dick Allen - 5.4
George Brett - 5.3
Kris Bryant - 5.3
Adrian Beltre - 5.2
Ron Santo - 5.1
Evan Longoria - 5.1
Denny Lyons - 5.1
Anthony Rendon - 5.1
Ken Boyer - 5.0
Jimmy Collins - 5.0
David Wright - 5.0
Al Rosen - 5.0

LEFT FIELD
Barry Bonds - 8.8
Ted Williams - 8.6
Shoeless Joe Jackson - 7.6
Stan Musial - 6.9
Ed Delahanty - 6.1
Charlie Keller - 6.1
Juan Soto - 6.1
Rickey henderson - 5.8
Ralph Kiner - 5.3
Al Simmons - 5.0
Ken Williams - 5.0
Starling Marte - 5.0
Monte Irvin - 5.0
George Stone - 5.0

CENTER FIELD
Mike Trout - 9.6
Oscar Charleston - 8.6
Willie Mays - 8.4
Turkey Stearnes - 8.2
Ty Cobb - 8.1
Tris Speaker - 7.8
Mickey Mantle - 7.4
Joe DiMaggio - 7.4
Willard Brown - 7.3
Cristobal Torriente - 6.5
Billy Hamilton - 6.4
Kevin Kiermaier - 5.8
Pete Browning - 5.6
Lorenzo Cain - 5.6
Larry Doby - 5.5
Banny Kauff - 5.5
Lip Pike - 5,5
Lenny Dykstra - 5.4
Kenny Lofton - 5.3
Byron Buxton - 5.3
Ken Griffey Jr. - 5.1
Wally Berger - 5.1
Duke Snider - 5.0
Earl Averill - 5.0
Earle Combs - 5.0

RIGHT FIELD
Babe Ruth - 10.5
Mookie Betts - 8.3
Aaron Judge - 7.5
Hank Aaron - 7.0
Mel Ott - 6.6
Roberto Clemente - 6.3
Frank Robinson - 6.2
Ronald Acuna Jr. - 6.1
Heavy Johnson - 6.0
Larry Walker - 5.9
Elmer Flick - 5.8
Rap Dixon - 5.8
George Springer - 5.6
Harry Heillmann - 5.5
Al Kaline - 5.3
Reggie Smith - 5.3
King Kelly - 5.2
Charlie Blackwell - 5.2
Bobby Bonds - 5.1
Sam Thompson - 5.1
Bryce Harper - 5.1
Tommy Hewnrich - 5.0

DESIGNATED HITTER
Edgar Martinez - 5.4
Giancarlo Stanton - 5.4
Frank Thomas - 5.2

STARTERS
Dave Brown - 8.0
Bill Foster - 7.7
Bullet Rogan - 7.4
Jacob deGrom - 7.4
Walter Johnson - 7.3
Lefty Grove - 6.8
Roger Clemens - 6.7
Kid Nichols - 6.6
Cy Young - 6.4
Pedro Martinez - 6.4
Clayton Kershaw - 6.4
Noodles Hahn - 6.4
Jim Devlin - 6.3
Grover Cleveland Alexander - 6.2
Russ Ford - 6.2
Christy Mathewson - 6.1
William Bell - 6.0
Nip Winters - 6.0
Ed Walsh - 5.9
Al Spalding - 5.9
Ray Brown - 5.9
Hilton Smith - 5.9
Bob Gibson - 5.8
Tom Seaver - 5.7
Dizzy Dean - 5.7
Randy Johnson - 5.6
Max Scherzer - 5.6
Chris Sale - 5.6
Addie Joss - 5.6
Charlie Ferguson - 5.6
Urban Shocker - 5.5
Johan Santana - 5.6
Edie Plank - 5.4
Curt Schilling - 5.4
Justin Verlander - 5.4
John Clarkson - 5.4
Roy Halladay - 5.4
Satchel Paige - 5.4
Wes Ferrell - 5.3
Rube Waddell - 5.3
Nap Rucker - 5.3
Brandon Webb - 5.3
Mike Mussina - 5.2
Jim McCormick - 5.2
Dazzy Vance - 5.2
Clark Griffith - 5.2
Bret Saberhagen - 5.2
Harry Brecheen - 5.1
Corey Kluber - 5.1
Candy Cummings - 5.1
Ben Sanders - 5.1
Rats Henderson - 5.1
Stan Coveleski - 5.0
Amos Rusie - 5.0
Bill Byrd - 5.0
Josh Johnson - 5.0
Sam Streeter - 5.0

Next the all time leaders regardless of position.

WAR PER 162
Babe Ruth - 10.5
Josh Gibson - 10.5
Mike Trout - 9.6
Rogers Hornsby - 9.1
Ross Barnes - 9.1
Barry Bonds - 8.8
Dobie Moore - 8.8
Ted Williams - 8.6
Oscar Charleston - 8.6
Lou Gehrig - 8.5
Willie Mays - 8.4
Mookie Betts - 8.3
Turkey Stearnes - 8.2
Ty Cobb - 8.1
Willie Wells - 8.0
Dave Brown - 8.0
Buck Leonard - 7.9
Tris Speaker - 7.8
Dan Brouthers - 7.7
Bill Foster - 7.7
Honus Wagner - 7.6
Shoeless Joe Jackson - 7.6
Aaron Judge - 7.5
Mickey Mantle - 7.4
Joe DiMaggio - 7.4
Bullet Rogan - 7.4
Jacob deGrom - 7.4
Walter Johnson - 7.3
Jackie Robinson - 7.3
Willard Brown - 7.3
Carlos Correa - 7.3
Mike Schmidt - 7.2
Eddie Collins - 7.1
Hank Aaron - 7.0
Nap Lajoie - 7.0
Arky Vaughan - 7.0


Lastly, huge stars who are under 5.0 WAR per 162.

WAR per 162
Greg Maddux - 4.9
Warren Spahn - 4.8
Carl Hubbell - 4.8
Sandy Koufax - 4.7
Juan Marichal - 4.6
Yogi Berra - 4.6
Tony Gwynn - 4.6
Roberto Alomar - 4.6
Robin Yount - 4.4
Brooks Robinson - 4.4
Ernie Banks - 4.3
Miguel Cabrera - 4.3
Jim Palmer - 4.3
Steve Carlton - 4.2
Reggie Jackson - 4.2
Derek Jeter - 4.2 (ROFL, big fucking superstar!!!)
Bob Feller - 4.1
Harmon Killebrew - 4.0
Willie McCovey - 4.0
Andre Dawson - 4.0
Sammy Sosa - 4.0
Tom Glavine - 4.0
John Smoltz - 3.9
Jeff Kent - 3.9
Willie Stargell - 3.9
Don Mattingly - 3.8
Garry Sheffield - 3.8
Craig Biggio - 3.7
Eddie Murray - 3.7
David Ortiz - 3.7
Ichiro Suzuki - 3.7
Pete Rose - 3.6
Luis Aparicio - 3.5
Dave Winfield - 3.5
Nolan Ryan - 3.5
Don Sutton - 3.0
Catfish Hunter - 2.8
Jack Morris - 2.7
Harold Baines - 2.2

What a joke these last 3 are as Hall of famers.

Okay, here's who I have in MY Hall of Fame

Retired players only - 274 players (I have Pujols listed, but I guess he may still play this season)

CATCHERS - 21
Johnny Bench
Charlie Bennett
Yogi Berra
Roger Bresnahan
Roy Campanella
Gary Carter
Mickey Cochrane
Bill Dickey
Buck Ewing
Carlton Fisk
Bill Freehan
Josh Gibson
Gabby Hartnett
Biz Mackey
Joe Mauer
Thurman Munson
Mike Piazza
Buster Posey
Ivan Rodriguez
Louis Santop
Wally Schang

FIRST BASEMEN - 29
Dick Allen
Cap Anson
Jeff Bagwell
Jake Beckley
Dan Brouthers
Miguel Cabrera
Orlando Cepada
Frank Chance
Will Clark
Roger Connor
Jimmie Foxx
Lou Gehrig
Hank Greenberg
Todd Helton
Keith Hernandez
Harmon Killebrew
Buck Leonard
Willie McCovey
Mark McGwire
Johnny Mize
Eddie Murray
Stan Musial
Rafael Palmeiro
Albert Pujols
George Sisler
Joe Start
Mule Suttles
Bill Terry
Jim Thome

SECOND BASE - 27
Roberto Alomar
Ross Barnes
Craig Biggio
Robinson Cano
Rod Carew
Cupid Childs
Eddie Collins
Bobby Doerr
Charlie Gehringer
Johnny Evers
Frankie Frisch
Joe Gordon
Bobby Grich
Billy Herman
Rogers Hornsby
Jeff Kent
Ian Kinsler
Nap Lajoie
Bid McPhee
Joe Morgan
Dustin Pedroia
Willie Randolph
Jackie Robinson
Ryne Sandberg
George Scales
Chase Utley
Lou Whitaker

SHORT STOP - 25
Luke Appling
Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Jack Glasscock
Hugie Jennings
Derek Jeter
Barry Larkin
Pop Lloyd
Dobie Moore
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken Jr.
Alex Rodriguez
Ozzie Smith
Joe Tinker
Alan Trammell
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Bobby Wallace
John Ward
Willie Wells
George Wright
Robin Yount

THIRD BASE - 18
Home Run Baker
Sal Bando
Buddy Bell
Adrian Beltre
Wade Boggs
Ken Boyer
George Brett
Jimmy Collins
Chipper Jones
Eddie Mathews
John McGraw
Graig Nettles
Brooks Robinson
Scott Rolen
Ron Santo
Mike Schmidt
Deacon White
Jud Wilson

LEFT FIELD - 25
Lance Berkman
Barry Bonds
Pete Browning
Jesse Burkett
Fred Clarke
Ed Delahanty
Goose Goslin
Rickey Henderson
Monte Irvin
Indian Bob Johnson
Ralph Kiner
Sherry Magee
Joe Medwick
Minnie Minoso
Jim O'Rourke
Tim Raines
Manny Ramirez
Pete Rose
Al Simmons
Willie Stargell
Harry Stovey
Zack Wheat
Billy Williams
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski

CENTER FIELD - 22
Richie Ashburn
Cool Papa Bell
Carlos Beltran
Max Carey
Oscar Charleston
Ty Cobb
Andre Dawson
Joe DiMaggio
Larry Doby
Jim Edmonds
George Gore
Ken Griffey Jr.
Billy Hamilton
Paul Hines
Andruw Jones
Kenny Lofton
Mickey Mantle
Willie Mays
Duke Snider
Tris Speaker
Turkey Stearnes
Cristóbal Torriente

RIGHT FIELD - 27
Hank Aaron
Bobby Abreu
Bobby Bonds
Roberto Clemente
Sam Crawford
Martin Dihigo
Dwight Evans
Elmer Flick
Vladimir Guerrero
Tony Gwynn
Harry Heilmann
Reggie Jackson
Heavy Johnson
Al Kaline
Willie Keeler
King Kelly
Mel Ott
Frank Robinson
Babe Ruth
Garry Sheffield
Reggie Smith
Sammy Sosa
Ichiro Suzuki
Sam Thompson
Larry Walker
Paul Waner
Dave Winfield

DESIGNATED HITTER - 4
Edgar Martinez
Paul Molitor
Frank Thomas
David Ortiz

STARTING PITCHERS - 70
Grover Cleveland Alexander
Chief Bender
Bert Blyleven
Tommy Bond
Kevin Brown
Ray Brown
Three Finger Brown
Charlie Buffinton
Steve Carlton
Bob Caruthers
John Clarkson
Roger Clemens
Davd Cone
Stan Coveleski
Dizzy Dean
Don Drysdale
Bob Feller
Wes Ferrell
Whitey Ford
Bill Foster
Bob Gibson
Tom Glavine
Clark Griffith
Lefty Grove
Roy Halladay
Cole Hamels
Carl Hubbell
Tim Hudson
Ferguson Jenkins
Randy Johnson
Walter Johnson
Addie Joss
Tim Keefe
Sandy Koufax
Ted Lyons
Greg Maddux
Juan Marichal
Pedro Martinez
Christy Mathewson
Jim McCormick
Joe McGinnity
Tony Mullane
Mike Mussina
Hal Newhouser
Kid Nichols
Phil Niekro
Satchel Paige
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Eddie Plank
Old Hoss Radbourn
Rick Reuschel
Robin Roberts
Bullet Rogan
Red Fuffing
Amos Rusie
Nolan Ryan
Bret Saberhagen
Johan Santana
Tom Seaver
Curt Schilling
Urban Shocker
John Smoltz
Warren Spahn
Al Spalding
Luis Tiant
Dazzy Vance
Rube Waddell
Ed Walsh
Cy Young

RELIEF PITCHERS - 6
Dennis Eckersley
Rich Gossage
Trevor Hoffman
Mariano Rivera
Billy Wagner
Hoyt Wilhelm

Current players who I expect will be added to the list when they retire:

CATCHER
Yadier Molina

FIRST BASE
Freddie Freeman
Paul Goldschmidt
Joey Votto

SECOND BASE
Jose Altuve

SHORT STOP
Carlos Correa

THIRD BASE
Nolan Arenado
Alex Bregman
Evan Longoria
Manny Machado

LEFT FIELD

CENTER FIELD
Mike Trout

RIGHT FIELD
Mookie Betts
Bryce Harper
Juan Soto

STARTERS
Zack Greinke
Clayton Kershaw
Max Scherzer
Justin Verlander

i know the top 3 is pretty set in stone, but anyone else feel like Tony Gwynn should probably be 4th?

dude, Charlie Gehringer couldn't hit a WAR if his OBP was +2, this is absurd. i bet he couldn't even field a pop fly from the DH in the NL with a RBI of .274. dude was lucky to have made the team.

Yogi Bear has the most championships and is therefor the best. if these other guys were better, why did they lose so much? its just science

MLB now considers Negro Leaguers to be major league players. Their stats have been added to the official MLB records.