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100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
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Author:  pgm [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
pave wrote:
Kareem (Walton for a season)


Quick note, I disagree with Walton being better than Kareem for even a season. And yes, Walton was one of the all-time great bigs for about two years, but the level Kareem played at from 1971-1982 was incredible.

pave wrote:
on that note, i hate the Walton drop. because it assumes that he was basically helpless after those seasons and it ignores other players who had similar shortened peaks... like McAdoo, who was only really great for a few years as well and was never even close to as ungodly brilliant as Walton was for his few years. and Barry, who was close to as brilliant as Walton but not quite Walton and also had a variety of factors that eliminated portions of his peak.


McAdoo is starting to seem a bit high, now that I think about it. Walton's problem is he only played at an All-Star level for two or three years. Yes, it was at a hall-of-fame level, but it was only two years. McAdoo did it for about six years (even if he was bouncing around for a few years). Both made significant contributions off the bench for champions later in their careers. (Walton won 6th Man of the Year in '86 and McAdoo averaged 17 a game in the '82 playoffs). Despite this, I think McAdoo should come down. I can see Walton going up to the mid-40s (certainly over those with similarly short peaks). As for Barry, he was an All Star twice before his jump to the ABA and five times after his return. He's really in a different league in terms of consistency. Also, he probably deserves a bit of credit for shaping free agency.

Quote:
hell, he played more games than Mikan did.


Not counting the NBL (obviously). But Mikan's peak is greater than Walton's, Mikan won more and he most certainly influenced the game more.

Quote:
i'd actually suggest moving Kidd and Nash above Barry and sticking Walton with Barry ahead of Elvin Hayes. but a part of me dies seeing Hayes above Walton.


What part of you dies? I don't see why Elvin Hayes gets the hate he does. He was an All Star for a decade, was the best player on some really strong Bullets teams and was the best forward of the '70s not named Havlicek, Barry or Erving.

Quote:
oh, and Wade's resume is a little worse than Gervin's in terms of accolades (because he's young) but he's got that championship (and its not just a ring, its a ring that he was hugely responsible for... not a Gary Payton style ring). i would put him above Payton and probably below Gervin for now. not above Cowens though. so yeah, 40 based on this list.


I see him just below Paul Arizin as well. I have to see if there's a good reason for switching Arizin and Payton (it's probably the same reasons that I have him over Wade).

Quote:
on second thought, i moved LeBron down a few spots.


OK, I see you put Barkley, Garnett, Robinson and Nowitzki over him.

Re-looking at 21-30, here's what I come up with:

21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. LeBron James
26. John Stockton
27. Isiah Thomas
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Walt Frazier
30. Allen Iverson

I give David Robinson the (ever so) slight edge over Nowitzki because he's one of the all-time great defensive players. He has an extra ring as well, but that's hardly comparing apples to apples. What are your thoughts?
Author:  pave [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
pgm wrote:
pave wrote:
i'd actually suggest moving Kidd and Nash above Barry and sticking Walton with Barry ahead of Elvin Hayes. but a part of me dies seeing Hayes above Walton.


What part of you dies? I don't see why Elvin Hayes gets the hate he does. He was an All Star for a decade, was the best player on some really strong Bullets teams and was the best forward of the '70s not named Havlicek, Barry or Erving.


the part of me that loves (LOVES!!!) basketball exists for a couple reasons: a pure, instinctual joy for competition and respect for those who cherish it and play like it. and the artistic (and intellectual) beauty of the game. and from an artistic/craft standpoint, Walton was a GENIUS. one of the few. someone who understood every aspect of the game and executed it perfectly. its only the cruelty of the chaotic and unpredictable universe that stopped him from being as high as 6-10 on this list. and not that there is anything wrong with Hayes. but from what i've read, it just seemed like he was always in the right place at the right time, and put up some good numbers while teammates (particular Unseld) had more influence on the success of the team. he wasn't well-liked by teammates. he didn't like to pass. he had a reputation (kind of like Malone) for choking when it mattered (although he has a ring and some nice numbers to back it up).

check out this article. its contains a lot of reasons i just don't like Hayes. http://www.truthaboutit.net/2009/09/elv ... nseld.html
Author:  pgm [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Elvin Hayes was not a great person, but he was a great player. Alex Hannum (who coached Wilt to his first ring), called Hayes "the most despicable person in sports." However, most of the criticism leveled against him simply wasn't fair. He was a guy who never learned to properly deal with people, so he overcompensated with an ego. Also, he and the media did not have the best relationship, and it became pretty antagonistic by the end. Hayes got better as a person and as a teammate (although, he still occasionally rubbed them the wrong way). If you check out the comment section of the article you posted, Hayes's kid mentions that Useld and Hayes did not hate each other.

Here's an article about the lack of respect Hayes received as a player (some of it deserved; some of it not). I think his most underrated year is his rookie season. He took a 15-67 expansion team into the playoffs while leading the league in scoring, fourth in rebounding and starting the AS Game over Wilt Chamberlain (which was, of course, silly). Really, though, no matter how great Elvin played, he was blamed. It didn't matter if teams like the Warriors or the Sonics built their entire defensive schemes around stopping Hayes, if Hayes didn't completely dominate, it was his fault. It's kind of similar to the blame LeBron gets for this year's finals.

Btw, on Malone having a reputation for choking, there's almost no evidence that he was actually a choker. He was often the only Jazz to show up in big games during the '90s. Yes, the lasting image is Game 6 of the '98 Finals, but that's hardly fair. See here for a comparison with Kobe Bryant
Author:  Black Zeppelin [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
pgm.....

I don't need to explain anything about my last post. I clearly said if this was my list I would probally move James down 1 or 2 spots. I do have my own list but I haven't messed with it ever since the Finals. If James continues to choke in the Finals in the future then I would have no problem moving him down a little OR...I at least wouldn't move him up until he does something great. Unable to win a title or even force a game 7 with the team he had is what hurts him.

Everyone has their own ways of ranking players. I heard that LeBron's wife cheated on him and it distracted him in game 4. Well fuck, Jordan played with the flu and played great. I thought James was ranked a tad bit too high to begin with. Just throwing in my 2 cents about it. If I really did care about where he ranks on this list then I would be posting here every day making a case for it like Echoes does in those other threads but I'm not because it doesn't bother me anymore.
Author:  pgm [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Oh, yeah, I understand that. I was just trying to tell you what I'm trying to make this list's philosophy be. I want it to be the only way a player moves down is if someone else moves over him. But, right now, the list is still fluid. What do you think of my 20-30 posted at the top of the page?
Author:  Black Zeppelin [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
pgm wrote:
Oh, yeah, I understand that. I was just trying to tell you what I'm trying to make this list's philosophy be. I want it to be the only way a player moves down is if someone else moves over him. But, right now, the list is still fluid. What do you think of my 20-30 posted at the top of the page?



I don't really see any big problems with 20-30. I'm not exactly an expert on these players' careers and one reason I joined this forum was to not only give opinions on the lists but also learn more. These days I just don't have as much free time anymore to look up stats and watch videos of these guys playing and studying their skills and career accomplishments which is probally why I haven't been posting here as much lately. I try my best though. For me James was just too high at 21st. WIth my list I like to wait a littler later into a players career before I put them up so high to see if they prove to be clutch in the playoffs/Finals and a true team player and winner instead of just having great stats.
Author:  corrections [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Chemical Ali wrote:
corrections wrote:
Chemical Ali wrote:
I think doesn't get enough credit for his defensive abilities during the 90s; the knicks were the best defensive team of the 90s, leading up until Ewings injury season in almost every defensive category, and Ewing lead the league in defensive win shares three times, and defensive ratings twice, while being in the top 5 for almost the entire decade for both categories. He lost the battle to Hakeem perhaps in the finals, but he was still a good defender in that series; 30 blocks and averaged more rebounds than Hakeem even though the Knicks took more shots in the series, and missed more. I think he had more offensive rebounds too, and about equal in steals. Also, the 1994 finals was not just Ewing v Hakeem. It was more Hakeem, Thorpe and Horry vs Ewing, Oakley and Mason.


But his defensive numbers are somewhat inflated (deflated?) because of Riley's extreme ugly it up style.

How do you inflate numbers based on a strategy? Thats just strategy, you could say the same thing for popavichs strategy and duncan ...and the only one of the knicks who played "ugly" would i guess be anthony mason. I would never call Ewing or Oakley a dirty or ugly player


Ugly in the New Jersey Devils trap sense not ugly in the dirty player sense.
Author:  corrections [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
pgm wrote:
pave wrote:
Kareem (Walton for a season)


Quick note, I disagree with Walton being better than Kareem for even a season. And yes, Walton was one of the all-time great bigs for about two years, but the level Kareem played at from 1971-1982 was incredible.

pave wrote:
on that note, i hate the Walton drop. because it assumes that he was basically helpless after those seasons and it ignores other players who had similar shortened peaks... like McAdoo, who was only really great for a few years as well and was never even close to as ungodly brilliant as Walton was for his few years. and Barry, who was close to as brilliant as Walton but not quite Walton and also had a variety of factors that eliminated portions of his peak.


McAdoo is starting to seem a bit high, now that I think about it. Walton's problem is he only played at an All-Star level for two or three years. Yes, it was at a hall-of-fame level, but it was only two years. McAdoo did it for about six years (even if he was bouncing around for a few years). Both made significant contributions off the bench for champions later in their careers. (Walton won 6th Man of the Year in '86 and McAdoo averaged 17 a game in the '82 playoffs). Despite this, I think McAdoo should come down. I can see Walton going up to the mid-40s (certainly over those with similarly short peaks). As for Barry, he was an All Star twice before his jump to the ABA and five times after his return. He's really in a different league in terms of consistency. Also, he probably deserves a bit of credit for shaping free agency.

Quote:
hell, he played more games than Mikan did.


Not counting the NBL (obviously). But Mikan's peak is greater than Walton's, Mikan won more and he most certainly influenced the game more.

Quote:
i'd actually suggest moving Kidd and Nash above Barry and sticking Walton with Barry ahead of Elvin Hayes. but a part of me dies seeing Hayes above Walton.


What part of you dies? I don't see why Elvin Hayes gets the hate he does. He was an All Star for a decade, was the best player on some really strong Bullets teams and was the best forward of the '70s not named Havlicek, Barry or Erving.

Quote:
oh, and Wade's resume is a little worse than Gervin's in terms of accolades (because he's young) but he's got that championship (and its not just a ring, its a ring that he was hugely responsible for... not a Gary Payton style ring). i would put him above Payton and probably below Gervin for now. not above Cowens though. so yeah, 40 based on this list.


I see him just below Paul Arizin as well. I have to see if there's a good reason for switching Arizin and Payton (it's probably the same reasons that I have him over Wade).

Quote:
on second thought, i moved LeBron down a few spots.


OK, I see you put Barkley, Garnett, Robinson and Nowitzki over him.

Re-looking at 21-30, here's what I come up with:

21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. LeBron James
26. John Stockton
27. Isiah Thomas
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Walt Frazier
30. Allen Iverson

I give David Robinson the (ever so) slight edge over Nowitzki because he's one of the all-time great defensive players. He has an extra ring as well, but that's hardly comparing apples to apples. What are your thoughts?


I think Robinson over Dirk is probably fair but on that same analysis he needs to be over Garnett because even if he wasn't quite the defender he was a much better offensive player.
Author:  pgm [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
corrections wrote:
Ugly in the New Jersey Devils trap sense not ugly in the dirty player sense.


Although, Anthony Mason was pretty ugly in another sense.

corrections wrote:
I think Robinson over Dirk is probably fair but on that same analysis he needs to be over Garnett because even if he wasn't quite the defender he was a much better offensive player.


Actually, I think you're right. It's very close between them. Garnett actually has longevity on Robinson. I would say Garnett would need a productive season to go over Robinson and Nowitzki, another all-star season.

Destroyer wrote:
I don't really see any big problems with 20-30. I'm not exactly an expert on these players' careers and one reason I joined this forum was to not only give opinions on the lists but also learn more.


Pave started to write bios for the players and I think I'll help him out with it. If you have any questions about the guys on this list, I can tell you what I know.
Author:  Chemical Ali [ Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
corrections wrote:
Chemical Ali wrote:
corrections wrote:
Chemical Ali wrote:
I think doesn't get enough credit for his defensive abilities during the 90s; the knicks were the best defensive team of the 90s, leading up until Ewings injury season in almost every defensive category, and Ewing lead the league in defensive win shares three times, and defensive ratings twice, while being in the top 5 for almost the entire decade for both categories. He lost the battle to Hakeem perhaps in the finals, but he was still a good defender in that series; 30 blocks and averaged more rebounds than Hakeem even though the Knicks took more shots in the series, and missed more. I think he had more offensive rebounds too, and about equal in steals. Also, the 1994 finals was not just Ewing v Hakeem. It was more Hakeem, Thorpe and Horry vs Ewing, Oakley and Mason.


But his defensive numbers are somewhat inflated (deflated?) because of Riley's extreme ugly it up style.

How do you inflate numbers based on a strategy? Thats just strategy, you could say the same thing for popavichs strategy and duncan ...and the only one of the knicks who played "ugly" would i guess be anthony mason. I would never call Ewing or Oakley a dirty or ugly player


Ugly in the New Jersey Devils trap sense not ugly in the dirty player sense.

Eh, Ewing was still a blocking machine for the knicks, 7th all-time in blocks; and a pretty good stealer for a center, though not as good as Hakeem
Author:  pgm [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
OK, I spent waaaaaaaaay too much time on this, but it's certainly not perfect. Nitpick away.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Oscar Robertson

11. Jerry West
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Elgin Baylor
14. Julius Erving
15. George Mikan
16. Moses Malone
17. Bob Pettit
18. Karl Malone
19. Bob Cousy
20. John Havlicek

21. Charles Barkley
22. Kevin Garnett
23. David Robinson
24. Dirk Nowitzki
25. LeBron James
26. John Stockton
27. Isiah Thomas
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Walt Frazier
30. Allen Iverson

31. Dolph Schayes
32. Rick Barry
33. Jason Kidd
34. Steve Nash
35. Elvin Hayes
36. Willis Reed
37. George Gervin
38. Patrick Ewing
39. Dave Cowens
40. Gary Payton

41. Paul Arizin
42. Sam Jones
43. Dwyane Wade
44. Bill Walton
45. Bob McAdoo
46. Clyde Drexler
47. Kevin McHale
48. Bill Sharman
49. Paul Pierce
50. Dominique Wilkins

51. Nate Archibald
52. Wes Unseld
53. Hal Greer
54. Robert Parish
55. Dwight Howard
56. Neil Johnston
57. James Worthy
58. Tracy McGrady
59. Dave DeBusschere
60. Dennis Johnson

61. Nate Thurmond
62. Jerry Lucas
63. Tommy Heinsohn
64. Bernard King
65. Pete Maravich
66. Billy Cunningham
67. Ray Allen
68. Dave Bing
69. Reggie Miller
70. Alex English

71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Lenny Wilkens
74. Artis Gilmore
75. Dennis Rodman
76. Alonzo Mourning
76. Joe Dumars
77. Sidney Moncrief
79. Chris Webber
80. George Yardley

81. Grant Hill
82. Bob Davies
83. Walt Bellamy
84. Earl Monroe
85. David Thompson
86. Ed Macauley
87. Chris Paul
88. Chris Mullin
89. Vince Carter
90. Gus Johnson

91. Kevin Johnson
92. Paul Westphal
93. Jo Jo White
94. Chauncey Billups
95. Pau Gasol
96. Bobby Dandridge
97. Tim Hardaway
98. Connie Hawkins
99. Shawn Kemp
100. Marques Johnson

Not quite: Mitch Richmond, Maurice Cheeks, Mark Price, Slater Martin, Dikembe Mutombo, Chet Walker, Ben Wallace, Cliff Hagan, Jack Twyman, Spencer Haywood.
Author:  Black Zeppelin [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Very good list. What about having George Gervin ahead of Willis Reed? Would that be accurate?

I still think Kareem should be in the top 3. He's currently 2nd on my list.
Author:  George [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
i'm not nearly the nba history buff you guys are, but i do like what i see... well done, pgm.

ps: how about manu ginobili maybe for honorable mention?
Author:  Black Zeppelin [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Oh I forgot to mention someone who WILL be pretty high on this list one day. Currently my favorite player.....Kevin Durant. He reminds me of Tim Duncan in a way. You don't see him getting too upset over fouls or trash talking to other players and he plays the game right. He doesn't show off, he just shows up and does his job. That's why he's my favorite.
Author:  Eric J [ Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
... And he signed a five year extension with a small market team, which I appreciate in today's NBA.
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