DDD Forum :: View topic - 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players

pave wrote:

[b
27. Walt Frazier

Good job ranking Walt so high.

kobe bryant in the top 10 is bullshit , objectively he belongs between the top 20 to 25 range.

mrsamtotheg wrote:

kobe bryant in the top 10 is bullshit , objectively he belongs between the top 20 to 25 range.

I would agree that ten is too high, but I think he's gotta be higher than 20. I mean, you;d have to say that he's the second best shooting guard ever, right? The dropoff is huge after Kobe to the third guy (Drexler or Gervin maybe).

Here's my top twenty.

1 - Air
2 - The Big Dipper
3 - Kareem
4 - Russell
5 - Magic
6 - Bird
7 - Oscar
8 - West
9 - Shaq
10 - Duncan
11 - Olajuwon
12 - Baylor
13 - Barkley
14 - Kobe
15 - LeBron
16 - Admiral
17 - Cousy
18 - Stockton
19 - Mailman
20 - Dr. J

David Robinson gets underrated because they didn't win until after Duncan arrived, but he had little help before that and the team had an incredible turnaround when he arrived. His stats are much better than Duncan and Hakeem's stats. I don't see Russell being better than Wilt or Kareem, and I don't think it's very close either. He was the best player on the best team, but nobody back then thought he was better than Wilt. He jusy had much better teammates and coaching than Wilt had. Basketball history is full of games and series where one team had by far the best player (Wilt) but the other team that beat him had the better team.

Russell played with team that were full of hall of famers, Wilt didn't have that ever.

I don't buy the modern thinking that has Russell ahead of Wilt. That would be like saying that DiMaggio was better than Ted Williams. He just wasn't. You can't just judge players in team sports by how many championships they won.

kobe byrant is not top 10 and not top 20 because he is a sidekick player who reaps the benefit of playing on the new york yankees of basketball, Hes won 5 championships ( a credit to a team anyway) and he was never really the clear cut best player for any accept maybe the one ring against orlando, hes been in the league 15 years and got 1 mvp, and the year he won it , it was questionable that chris paul should have won it, after all cp3 did more with less,anytime kobe has entered the playoffs with a non stacked roster, like the year he was getting 35 ppg, he got knocked out of the first round, then the next I think they were swept, He has never won when his team was the underdog, like against boston of 2008, and hes lost some series as the favorite, last year against the mavs he was swept, against spurs in 03 he lost against the pistons his crew lost, his defense is a joke,guarding dudes like rondo ,its always the weakest guy in the backcourt, he tries to guard point guards and gets lit up, and he hasnt been the best player in the league since 2003 , he is also a career 45 to 46 percent shooter, thats volume scoring not efficient scoring, he doesnt do anything else really well, like rebound or pass etc,hes a one trick pony, shoot alot to score alot kind of guy, and hes not clutch.

mrsamtotheg wrote:

You can't be fucking serious.

I hate Kobe, but even I know this is a load of shit.

Why do you feel like West and Robertson (or even Bird) deserve to be ahead of Shaq and Tim Dumpling?

SanTropez wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

You can't be fucking serious.

I hate Kobe, but even I know this is a load of shit.

where am I factually incorrect , whats off base here , explain what you mean.

Author:	pgm [ Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
I was reading one of Sports Illustrated's articles where they talk about expanding the court (they seem to write one of those every 10 years or so). This one was from 1986, so it made sense to still be talking about the dominance of big men. Anyway, the article was pretty silly, but it did have this gem: There was a Mikan-era, followed by a Russell-Chamberlain era, followed by an Abdul-Jabbar era. Without a dominant center, even great players rarely won an NBA title. Oscar Robertson needed Abdul-Jabbar, Jerry West needed Wilt Chamberlain, Julius Erving needed Moses Malone. The incomparable Elgin Baylor, who played the first seven years of his career with centers he outrebounded, never won a championship. Could Larry Bird win a title without a dominant center? We don't know; he's always had a Dave Cowens or a Parish and McHale--and now he has a Bill Walton, too. Magic without Abdul-Jabbar? Perhaps. We'll see in the coming years. Will Isiah Thomas ever get his chance? Dominique Wilkins? (Photo caption): Jordan may be the game's brightest star, but without a big man he has no shot at a title.

Author:	pgm [ Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Julius Erving puts a move on Connie Hawkins in the 1972 ABA-NBA All Star Game. I wish there was more of the video. It primarily focuses on the great center matchups. You have (a lethargic) Chamberlain against Artis Gilmore for one of the great power matchups of all time. Gilmore plays really well against Chamberlain in the first quarter, scoring on a hook and a few other moves. Chamberlain makes some adjustments in the third quarter and blocks a few of Gilmore's shots. The other bigman matchup is Bob Lanier vs. Mel Daniels. Both were quite underrated bigs, who could shoot and handle the ball. It's a shame Daniels never transitioned well into the NBA--he could have been one of the all-time greats. Anyway, it's an AS Game and it's all in good fun, but it's a nice snapshot of history.

Author:	pgm [ Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
OK. I'll update this with bios at some point soon (like Pave started).

Author:	Bruce [ Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
pave wrote: [b 27. Walt Frazier Good job ranking Walt so high.

Author:	mrsamtotheg [ Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
kobe bryant in the top 10 is bullshit , objectively he belongs between the top 20 to 25 range.

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Author:	Paulie [ Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Let's hear your case not only against him being in the top 10, but for the "at least" 20 people ahead of him.

Author:	pgm [ Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Bruce wrote: pave wrote: [b 27. Walt Frazier Good job ranking Walt so high. Thank you. Btw, looking at those immediately below Frazier, does anyone think Nowitzki can move higher than Pippen (and possibly Frazier)? I'm trying to remember what I decided before Pave stopped editing the first post. I think Kobe was moved to #9, but I was hesitant on that. I think I switched LeBron and Barkley. If basketball ever returns, that won't last, though. 30-34 was moved around to 30. Dolph Schayes, 31. Jason Kidd, 32. Rick Barry, 33. Allen Iverson, 34. Steve Nash.

Author:	Bruce [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
mrsamtotheg wrote: kobe bryant in the top 10 is bullshit , objectively he belongs between the top 20 to 25 range. I would agree that ten is too high, but I think he's gotta be higher than 20. I mean, you;d have to say that he's the second best shooting guard ever, right? The dropoff is huge after Kobe to the third guy (Drexler or Gervin maybe). Here's my top twenty. 1 - Air 2 - The Big Dipper 3 - Kareem 4 - Russell 5 - Magic 6 - Bird 7 - Oscar 8 - West 9 - Shaq 10 - Duncan 11 - Olajuwon 12 - Baylor 13 - Barkley 14 - Kobe 15 - LeBron 16 - Admiral 17 - Cousy 18 - Stockton 19 - Mailman 20 - Dr. J David Robinson gets underrated because they didn't win until after Duncan arrived, but he had little help before that and the team had an incredible turnaround when he arrived. His stats are much better than Duncan and Hakeem's stats. I don't see Russell being better than Wilt or Kareem, and I don't think it's very close either. He was the best player on the best team, but nobody back then thought he was better than Wilt. He jusy had much better teammates and coaching than Wilt had. Basketball history is full of games and series where one team had by far the best player (Wilt) but the other team that beat him had the better team. Russell played with team that were full of hall of famers, Wilt didn't have that ever. I don't buy the modern thinking that has Russell ahead of Wilt. That would be like saying that DiMaggio was better than Ted Williams. He just wasn't. You can't just judge players in team sports by how many championships they won.

Author:	Paulie [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Why do you feel like West and Robertson (or even Bird) deserve to be ahead of Shaq and Tim Dumpling?

Author:	mrsamtotheg [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
kobe byrant is not top 10 and not top 20 because he is a sidekick player who reaps the benefit of playing on the new york yankees of basketball, Hes won 5 championships ( a credit to a team anyway) and he was never really the clear cut best player for any accept maybe the one ring against orlando, hes been in the league 15 years and got 1 mvp, and the year he won it , it was questionable that chris paul should have won it, after all cp3 did more with less,anytime kobe has entered the playoffs with a non stacked roster, like the year he was getting 35 ppg, he got knocked out of the first round, then the next I think they were swept, He has never won when his team was the underdog, like against boston of 2008, and hes lost some series as the favorite, last year against the mavs he was swept, against spurs in 03 he lost against the pistons his crew lost, his defense is a joke,guarding dudes like rondo ,its always the weakest guy in the backcourt, he tries to guard point guards and gets lit up, and he hasnt been the best player in the league since 2003 , he is also a career 45 to 46 percent shooter, thats volume scoring not efficient scoring, he doesnt do anything else really well, like rebound or pass etc,hes a one trick pony, shoot alot to score alot kind of guy, and hes not clutch.

Author:	mrsamtotheg [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Bruce wrote: mrsamtotheg wrote: kobe bryant in the top 10 is bullshit , objectively he belongs between the top 20 to 25 range. I would agree that ten is too high, but I think he's gotta be higher than 20. I mean, you;d have to say that he's the second best shooting guard ever, right? The dropoff is huge after Kobe to the third guy (Drexler or Gervin maybe). Here's my top twenty. 1 - Air 2 - The Big Dipper 3 - Kareem 4 - Russell 5 - Magic 6 - Bird 7 - Oscar 8 - West 9 - Shaq 10 - Duncan 11 - Olajuwon 12 - Baylor 13 - Barkley 14 - Kobe 15 - LeBron 16 - Admiral 17 - Cousy 18 - Stockton 19 - Mailman 20 - Dr. J David Robinson gets underrated because they didn't win until after Duncan arrived, but he had little help before that and the team had an incredible turnaround when he arrived. His stats are much better than Duncan and Hakeem's stats. I don't see Russell being better than Wilt or Kareem, and I don't think it's very close either. He was the best player on the best team, but nobody back then thought he was better than Wilt. He jusy had much better teammates and coaching than Wilt had. Basketball history is full of games and series where one team had by far the best player (Wilt) but the other team that beat him had the better team. Russell played with team that were full of hall of famers, Wilt didn't have that ever. I don't buy the modern thinking that has Russell ahead of Wilt. That would be like saying that DiMaggio was better than Ted Williams. He just wasn't. You can't just judge players in team sports by how many championships they won. I agree with your russell versus wilt ranking ,and I can live with kobe moving a couple spots behind lebron and the admiral, those were guys who can do numerous things in their prime, while kobe is a volume scoring guy, who can occasionally play D. Olajuwan to me , is one of the few true guys who can lead a team by himself, like in 94 before drexler, his team beat better teams, he did it again the next year, he dominated robinson,shaq and ewing, when it mattered the most, he can score ,rebound and defend, he should be way up there , I would even rate him higher than shaq , it pains me to say this being a spurs fan and all though lol.

Author:	SanTropez [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
mrsamtotheg wrote: kobe byrant is not top 10 and not top 20 because he is a sidekick player who reaps the benefit of playing on the new york yankees of basketball, Hes won 5 championships ( a credit to a team anyway) and he was never really the clear cut best player for any accept maybe the one ring against orlando, hes been in the league 15 years and got 1 mvp, and the year he won it , it was questionable that chris paul should have won it, after all cp3 did more with less,anytime kobe has entered the playoffs with a non stacked roster, like the year he was getting 35 ppg, he got knocked out of the first round, then the next I think they were swept, He has never won when his team was the underdog, like against boston of 2008, and hes lost some series as the favorite, last year against the mavs he was swept, against spurs in 03 he lost against the pistons his crew lost, his defense is a joke,guarding dudes like rondo ,its always the weakest guy in the backcourt, he tries to guard point guards and gets lit up, and he hasnt been the best player in the league since 2003 , he is also a career 45 to 46 percent shooter, thats volume scoring not efficient scoring, he doesnt do anything else really well, like rebound or pass etc,hes a one trick pony, shoot alot to score alot kind of guy, and hes not clutch. You can't be fucking serious. I hate Kobe, but even I know this is a load of shit.

Author:	mrsamtotheg [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
SanTropez wrote: mrsamtotheg wrote: kobe byrant is not top 10 and not top 20 because he is a sidekick player who reaps the benefit of playing on the new york yankees of basketball, Hes won 5 championships ( a credit to a team anyway) and he was never really the clear cut best player for any accept maybe the one ring against orlando, hes been in the league 15 years and got 1 mvp, and the year he won it , it was questionable that chris paul should have won it, after all cp3 did more with less,anytime kobe has entered the playoffs with a non stacked roster, like the year he was getting 35 ppg, he got knocked out of the first round, then the next I think they were swept, He has never won when his team was the underdog, like against boston of 2008, and hes lost some series as the favorite, last year against the mavs he was swept, against spurs in 03 he lost against the pistons his crew lost, his defense is a joke,guarding dudes like rondo ,its always the weakest guy in the backcourt, he tries to guard point guards and gets lit up, and he hasnt been the best player in the league since 2003 , he is also a career 45 to 46 percent shooter, thats volume scoring not efficient scoring, he doesnt do anything else really well, like rebound or pass etc,hes a one trick pony, shoot alot to score alot kind of guy, and hes not clutch. You can't be fucking serious. I hate Kobe, but even I know this is a load of shit. where am I factually incorrect , whats off base here , explain what you mean.

Author:	Bruce [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
Paulie wrote: Why do you feel like West and Robertson (or even Bird) deserve to be ahead of Shaq and Tim Dumpling? West and Robertson were players who were far better than the rest of the league at their position for most of their careers. They were 1980s level players playing in the 1960s, in terms of their advanced skills, especially Oscar. West was first team all league ten times, and all defense four times, and they only started the all defense team towards the end of his career. If they had had it the whole time he would have been first team all defense like 12 times. Oscar was first team all league 9 times. and a regular season MVP in the middle of the Wilt-Russell era, and AVERAGED a triple double one year. Shaq was first team 8 times, and had weaknesses in his game. He could be a liability on defense too, as witnessed by what Olajuwon did to him in the finals with Orlando. With Duncan, I am tempted to drop him even lower. Baylor, Barkley and some others have much better stats than Tim does. I just think Tim was in the right system with the right coach. Maybe I'm uderrating him some, he was first team all league 9 times, but I remember from my fantasy teams that his stats were never as good as some other players in the league in those days. Barkley was always more valuable in my league, as was Karl Malone and even Stockton in some years. As for Bird, he just was unique at his height being that great a shooter, and he just made everybody else around him so much better.

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Author:	SanTropez [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
mrsamtotheg wrote: SanTropez wrote: mrsamtotheg wrote: kobe byrant is not top 10 and not top 20 because he is a sidekick player who reaps the benefit of playing on the new york yankees of basketball, Hes won 5 championships ( a credit to a team anyway) and he was never really the clear cut best player for any accept maybe the one ring against orlando, hes been in the league 15 years and got 1 mvp, and the year he won it , it was questionable that chris paul should have won it, after all cp3 did more with less,anytime kobe has entered the playoffs with a non stacked roster, like the year he was getting 35 ppg, he got knocked out of the first round, then the next I think they were swept, He has never won when his team was the underdog, like against boston of 2008, and hes lost some series as the favorite, last year against the mavs he was swept, against spurs in 03 he lost against the pistons his crew lost, his defense is a joke,guarding dudes like rondo ,its always the weakest guy in the backcourt, he tries to guard point guards and gets lit up, and he hasnt been the best player in the league since 2003 , he is also a career 45 to 46 percent shooter, thats volume scoring not efficient scoring, he doesnt do anything else really well, like rebound or pass etc,hes a one trick pony, shoot alot to score alot kind of guy, and hes not clutch. You can't be fucking serious. I hate Kobe, but even I know this is a load of shit. where am I factually incorrect , whats off base here , explain what you mean. Your post is full of vagaries and subjective analysis. I don't even know where to begin with a criticism.