100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

SanTropez wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

SanTropez wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

kobe byrant is not top 10 and not top 20 because he is a sidekick player who reaps the benefit of playing on the new york yankees of basketball, Hes won 5 championships ( a credit to a team anyway) and he was never really the clear cut best player for any accept maybe the one ring against orlando, hes been in the league 15 years and got 1 mvp, and the year he won it , it was questionable that chris paul should have won it, after all cp3 did more with less,anytime kobe has entered the playoffs with a non stacked roster, like the year he was getting 35 ppg, he got knocked out of the first round, then the next I think they were swept, He has never won when his team was the underdog, like against boston of 2008, and hes lost some series as the favorite, last year against the mavs he was swept, against spurs in 03 he lost against the pistons his crew lost, his defense is a joke,guarding dudes like rondo ,its always the weakest guy in the backcourt, he tries to guard point guards and gets lit up, and he hasnt been the best player in the league since 2003 , he is also a career 45 to 46 percent shooter, thats volume scoring not efficient scoring, he doesnt do anything else really well, like rebound or pass etc,hes a one trick pony, shoot alot to score alot kind of guy, and hes not clutch.

You can't be fucking serious.

I hate Kobe, but even I know this is a load of shit.

where am I factually incorrect , whats off base here , explain what you mean.

Your post is full of vagaries and subjective analysis. I don't even know where to begin with a criticism.

chip away man, give me some examples of this, or better yet counter the arguements.

SanTropez · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:45 am

Umm, no.

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

SanTropez wrote:

Umm, no.

thats what I thought !

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:56 am

Just got off the phone with a real knowledgable NBA guy who says Kobe is top 5, ahead of magic, Bird, Oscar, Shaq, etc.....

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Bruce wrote:

Just got off the phone with a real knowledgable NBA guy who says Kobe is top 5, ahead of magic, Bird, Oscar, Shaq, etc.....

looord how so, because I have my top guys and we all rank him out of the top 10

Machine Head · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:35 am

mrsamtotheg wrote:

SanTropez wrote:

Umm, no.

thats what I thought !

And you claim to be the mature one :lol:

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Machine Head wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

SanTropez wrote:

Umm, no.

thats what I thought !

And you claim to be the mature one :lol:

dayum the Cia again , you guys follow me on this forum like a hawk, do you even know anything about basketball , or you gonna admit your obsession with me now.

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:48 pm

mrsamtotheg wrote:

Bruce wrote:

Just got off the phone with a real knowledgable NBA guy who says Kobe is top 5, ahead of magic, Bird, Oscar, Shaq, etc.....

looord how so, because I have my top guys and we all rank him out of the top 10

Well for one, how many of the guys you rank ahead of him are capable of dropping 80 points in one game?

Kobe started so young, he's likely to end up with the most points of all time if he plays long enough.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

he's already in the top ten of all time for NBA/ABA combined, and he's just 33 years old.

By the way, the career win shares list looks a lot different than our lists:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

Like I said, Duncan's stats were not as great as David Robinson and some others. Russell only #16, and magic and Bird are not top 20. I would guess the fact that those guys played with so many other great players as teammates is spotted by an objective mathematical system that has no emotion.

Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.62
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. John Stockton* 207.70
6. Artis Gilmore* 189.65
7. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
8. Shaquille O'Neal 181.71
9. Julius Erving* 181.11
10. Moses Malone* 179.17
11. David Robinson* 178.67
12. Charles Barkley* 177.21
13. Kevin Garnett 174.68
14. Reggie Miller 174.40
15. Tim Duncan 170.00
16. Bill Russell* 163.51
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
18. Jerry West* 162.58
19. Dirk Nowitzki 161.30
20. Dan Issel* 157.82
21. Kobe Bryant 156.27
22. Magic Johnson* 155.79
23. Robert Parish* 147.00
24. Larry Bird* 145.83
25. Gary Payton 145.53
26. Dolph Schayes* 141.78
27. Bob Pettit* 136.05
28. Clyde Drexler* 135.57
29. Adrian Dantley* 134.22
30. John Havlicek* 131.72
31. Ray Allen 130.94
32. Jason Kidd 130.14
33. Walt Bellamy* 130.05
34. Rick Barry* 128.95
35. Patrick Ewing* 126.45
36. Scottie Pippen* 125.08
37. Paul Pierce 124.19
38. Elvin Hayes* 120.76
39. Buck Williams 120.09
40. Steve Nash 119.45
41. LeBron James 118.85
42. Horace Grant 118.23
43. Chauncey Billups 118.08
44. Dominique Wilkins* 117.47
45. Chet Walker 117.35
46. Bob Lanier* 117.11
47. Dikembe Mutombo 116.98
48. George Gervin* 116.28
49. Bailey Howell* 114.82
50. Walt Frazier* 113.54
51. Kevin McHale* 113.04
52. Jack Sikma 112.46
53. Terry Porter 110.39
54. Wes Unseld* 110.08
55. Shawn Marion 109.93
56. Larry Nance 109.57
57. Detlef Schrempf 109.52
58. Jeff Hornacek 108.87
59. Paul Arizin* 108.80
60. George Mikan* 108.65
61. Otis Thorpe 106.39
62. Zelmo Beaty 106.00
63. Bill Laimbeer 105.56
64. Sam Perkins 105.39
65. Rasheed Wallace 104.47
66. Elgin Baylor* 104.15
67. Maurice Cheeks 103.48
68. Hal Greer* 102.65
69. Vince Carter 102.48
70. Alex English* 100.68
71. Eddie Jones 100.56
72. Ed Macauley* 100.42
73. A.C. Green 99.46
74. Allen Iverson 98.97
75. Grant Hill 98.49
76. Jerry Lucas* 98.41
77. Pau Gasol 98.05
78. Vlade Divac 96.42
79. Elton Brand 95.73
80. Tracy McGrady 95.63
81. Lenny Wilkens* 95.53
82. Bobby Jones 93.79
83. Chris Mullin* 93.08
84. Kevin Johnson 92.77
85. Sam Jones* 92.29
86. Ben Wallace 92.08
87. Neil Johnston* 91.99
88. Mark Jackson 91.78
89. Terry Cummings 91.12
90. Bob Cousy* 91.11
91. Hersey Hawkins 90.62
92. Sidney Moncrief 90.32
93. P.J. Brown 89.84
94. Dennis Rodman* 89.83
95. Alonzo Mourning 89.74
96. Clifford Robinson 89.73
97. Charles Oakley 89.68
98. Shawn Kemp 89.51
99. Bob McAdoo* 89.08
100. Glen Rice 88.71

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:01 pm

Some of these are shocking:

60. George Mikan* 108.65
66. Elgin Baylor* 104.15
90. Bob Cousy* 91.11

Numbers don't lie, and while numbers don't work near as well in basketball as in baseball, there's got to be SOMETHING to what they are trying to tell us here.

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:06 pm

Best win share seasons:

8 of the top 11 seasons are from Wilt and Kareem.

NBA/ABA
Rank Player WS Season Tm
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.37 1971-72 MIL
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 24.98 1963-64 SFW
3. George Mikan* 23.43 1950-51 MNL
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 23.11 1961-62 PHW
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.31 1970-71 MIL
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 21.87 1966-67 PHI
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.86 1972-73 MIL
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 21.42 1965-66 PHI
9. Michael Jordan* 21.23 1987-88 CHI
10. George Mikan* 21.13 1949-50 MNL
11. Wilt Chamberlain* 20.94 1962-63 SFW
12. George Mikan* 20.86 1948-49 MNL
13. Oscar Robertson* 20.65 1963-64 CIN
14. Michael Jordan* 20.43 1995-96 CHI
15. Wilt Chamberlain* 20.38 1967-68 PHI
16. Michael Jordan* 20.30 1990-91 CHI
17. LeBron James 20.25 2008-09 CLE
18. David Robinson* 19.98 1993-94 SAS
19. Michael Jordan* 19.80 1988-89 CHI
20. Artis Gilmore* 19.79 1971-72 KEN
21. Michael Jordan* 18.99 1989-90 CHI
22. Wilt Chamberlain* 18.83 1960-61 PHW
23. Shaquille O'Neal 18.65 1999-00 LAL
24. Bob Feerick 18.59 1946-47 WSC
25. Artis Gilmore* 18.49 1972-73 KEN
26. LeBron James 18.46 2009-10 CLE
27. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.45 1973-74 MIL
28. Kevin Garnett 18.33 2003-04 MIN
29. Michael Jordan* 18.30 1996-97 CHI
30. Neil Johnston* 18.30 1953-54 PHW
31. Chris Paul 18.29 2008-09 NOH
32. David Robinson* 18.26 1995-96 SAS
33. Wilt Chamberlain* 18.20 1972-73 LAL
34. Alex Groza 17.96 1950-51 INO
35. Alex Groza 17.92 1949-50 INO
36. Connie Hawkins* 17.87 1967-68 PTP
37. Tim Duncan 17.81 2001-02 SAS
38. Bob McAdoo* 17.81 1974-75 BUF
39. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.81 1976-77 LAL
40. Chris Paul 17.79 2007-08 NOH
41. Michael Jordan* 17.73 1991-92 CHI
42. Dirk Nowitzki 17.72 2005-06 DAL
43. Julius Erving* 17.72 1975-76 NYA
44. Julius Erving* 17.58 1974-75 NYA
45. David Robinson* 17.46 1994-95 SAS
46. Oscar Robertson* 17.42 1966-67 CIN
47. Charles Barkley* 17.30 1989-90 PHI
48. Bill Russell* 17.29 1963-64 BOS
49. Michael Jordan* 17.24 1992-93 CHI
50. Jerry West* 17.13 1965-66 LAL
51. Spencer Haywood 17.10 1969-70 DNR
52. David Robinson* 17.04 1990-91 SAS
53. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 1975-76 LAL
54. Wilt Chamberlain* 17.01 1959-60 PHW
55. Oscar Robertson* 16.95 1964-65 CIN
56. Shaquille O'Neal 16.91 1993-94 ORL
57. Michael Jordan* 16.89 1986-87 CHI
58. Oscar Robertson* 16.88 1965-66 CIN
59. Bill Russell* 16.87 1964-65 BOS
60. Oscar Robertson* 16.80 1962-63 CIN
61. Charles Barkley* 16.71 1987-88 PHI
62. Karl Malone* 16.71 1996-97 UTA
63. Jerry West* 16.68 1964-65 LAL
64. Magic Johnson* 16.55 1989-90 LAL
65. Julius Erving* 16.48 1973-74 NYA
66. Tim Duncan 16.45 2002-03 SAS
67. Karl Malone* 16.35 1997-98 UTA
68. Dirk Nowitzki 16.34 2006-07 DAL
69. Joe Fulks* 16.27 1946-47 PHW
70. LeBron James 16.26 2005-06 CLE
71. Walt Bellamy* 16.25 1961-62 CHP
72. Artis Gilmore* 16.18 1974-75 KEN
73. Dirk Nowitzki 16.14 2002-03 DAL
74. Tracy McGrady 16.11 2002-03 ORL
75. Kevin Garnett 16.11 2004-05 MIN
76. Jimmy Jones 16.09 1968-69 NOB
77. Kevin Durant 16.09 2009-10 OKC
78. Charles Barkley* 16.08 1988-89 PHI
79. Magic Johnson* 16.07 1988-89 LAL
80. Zelmo Beaty 16.04 1970-71 UTS
81. Paul Arizin* 16.01 1951-52 PHW
82. Karl Malone* 15.92 1989-90 UTA
83. Magic Johnson* 15.90 1986-87 LAL
84. Ed Macauley* 15.89 1950-51 BOS
85. Wilt Chamberlain* 15.84 1971-72 LAL
86. Hakeem Olajuwon* 15.82 1992-93 HOU
87. Larry Bird* 15.81 1985-86 BOS
88. Michael Jordan* 15.80 1997-98 CHI
89. Dan Issel* 15.77 1972-73 KEN
90. Larry Bird* 15.67 1984-85 BOS
91. Walt Frazier* 15.62 1970-71 NYK
92. Oscar Robertson* 15.62 1961-62 CIN
93. John Stockton* 15.61 1988-89 UTA
94. Kevin Garnett 15.60 2002-03 MIN
95. Dirk Nowitzki 15.60 2004-05 DAL
96. LeBron James 15.59 2010-11 MIA
97. Chauncey Billups 15.49 2005-06 DET
98. Bill Russell* 15.49 1961-62 BOS
99. Karl Malone* 15.49 1990-91 UTA
100. Moses Malone* 15.42 1981-82 HOU

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:11 pm

Here's the site's win share formulas.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Bruce wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

Bruce wrote:

Just got off the phone with a real knowledgable NBA guy who says Kobe is top 5, ahead of magic, Bird, Oscar, Shaq, etc.....

looord how so, because I have my top guys and we all rank him out of the top 10

Well for one, how many of the guys you rank ahead of him are capable of dropping 80 points in one game?

yeah I saw the game I live an hour and half from L.A I see all the games ha, that being said, kobe milked it he didnt get taken out of the game until a minute left if I remember, the lakers had the game in hand , already and he kept adding to HIs personal point total, he was milking the raptors shit defense, that wasnt that impressive of a performance,it was a perfect ko me bryant moment, he was running up his stats .

Kobe started so young, he's likely to end up with the most points of all time if he plays long enough.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

he's already in the top ten of all time for NBA/ABA combined, and he's just 33 years old.

By the way, the career win shares list looks a lot different than our lists:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html

Like I said, Duncan's stats were not as great as David Robinson and some others. Russell only #16, and magic and Bird are not top 20. I would guess the fact that those guys played with so many other great players as teammates is spotted by an objective mathematical system that has no emotion.

Rank Player WS
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
3. Karl Malone* 234.62
4. Michael Jordan* 214.02
5. John Stockton* 207.70
6. Artis Gilmore* 189.65
7. Oscar Robertson* 189.21
8. Shaquille O'Neal 181.71
9. Julius Erving* 181.11
10. Moses Malone* 179.17
11. David Robinson* 178.67
12. Charles Barkley* 177.21
13. Kevin Garnett 174.68
14. Reggie Miller 174.40
15. Tim Duncan 170.00
16. Bill Russell* 163.51
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 162.77
18. Jerry West* 162.58
19. Dirk Nowitzki 161.30
20. Dan Issel* 157.82
21. Kobe Bryant 156.27
22. Magic Johnson* 155.79
23. Robert Parish* 147.00
24. Larry Bird* 145.83
25. Gary Payton 145.53
26. Dolph Schayes* 141.78
27. Bob Pettit* 136.05
28. Clyde Drexler* 135.57
29. Adrian Dantley* 134.22
30. John Havlicek* 131.72
31. Ray Allen 130.94
32. Jason Kidd 130.14
33. Walt Bellamy* 130.05
34. Rick Barry* 128.95
35. Patrick Ewing* 126.45
36. Scottie Pippen* 125.08
37. Paul Pierce 124.19
38. Elvin Hayes* 120.76
39. Buck Williams 120.09
40. Steve Nash 119.45
41. LeBron James 118.85
42. Horace Grant 118.23
43. Chauncey Billups 118.08
44. Dominique Wilkins* 117.47
45. Chet Walker 117.35
46. Bob Lanier* 117.11
47. Dikembe Mutombo 116.98
48. George Gervin* 116.28
49. Bailey Howell* 114.82
50. Walt Frazier* 113.54
51. Kevin McHale* 113.04
52. Jack Sikma 112.46
53. Terry Porter 110.39
54. Wes Unseld* 110.08
55. Shawn Marion 109.93
56. Larry Nance 109.57
57. Detlef Schrempf 109.52
58. Jeff Hornacek 108.87
59. Paul Arizin* 108.80
60. George Mikan* 108.65
61. Otis Thorpe 106.39
62. Zelmo Beaty 106.00
63. Bill Laimbeer 105.56
64. Sam Perkins 105.39
65. Rasheed Wallace 104.47
66. Elgin Baylor* 104.15
67. Maurice Cheeks 103.48
68. Hal Greer* 102.65
69. Vince Carter 102.48
70. Alex English* 100.68
71. Eddie Jones 100.56
72. Ed Macauley* 100.42
73. A.C. Green 99.46
74. Allen Iverson 98.97
75. Grant Hill 98.49
76. Jerry Lucas* 98.41
77. Pau Gasol 98.05
78. Vlade Divac 96.42
79. Elton Brand 95.73
80. Tracy McGrady 95.63
81. Lenny Wilkens* 95.53
82. Bobby Jones 93.79
83. Chris Mullin* 93.08
84. Kevin Johnson 92.77
85. Sam Jones* 92.29
86. Ben Wallace 92.08
87. Neil Johnston* 91.99
88. Mark Jackson 91.78
89. Terry Cummings 91.12
90. Bob Cousy* 91.11
91. Hersey Hawkins 90.62
92. Sidney Moncrief 90.32
93. P.J. Brown 89.84
94. Dennis Rodman* 89.83
95. Alonzo Mourning 89.74
96. Clifford Robinson 89.73
97. Charles Oakley 89.68
98. Shawn Kemp 89.51
99. Bob McAdoo* 89.08
100. Glen Rice 88.71

heres a list I got from blitzsportsnetwork this guy is an obsessed nba historian with facts to boot, he has kobe in the top 20 while I do not here is his list

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O’Neal
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Bob Pettit
Charles Barkley
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Dirk Nowitzki (+12 spots from last year)
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett
George Mikan
Dr J
Dwyane Wade (+4 spots from last year)
Bob Cousy
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
John Stockton
Clyde Drexler
Rick Barry
Isiah Thomas
Gary Payton
Patrick Ewing
Bob McAdoo
Walt Frazier
Neil Johnston
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes
Scottie Pippen
Dominique Wilkins
Dolph Schayes
Jerry Lucas
Steve Nash
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Willis Reed
Tiny Archibald
Dave Cowens
Paul Arizin
Walt Bellamy
Pistol Pete

and his reasons why kobe doesnt sniff the top 10 let alone top 5 let alone top 3 etc

Kobe Bryant
Second in MVP voting twice, top three 5 times, top five 9 times , top ten 10 times. Kobe’s best all-around season was 2002-2003 when he averaged 30ppg, 6.9reb, 5.9ast. Kobe has had many flashes of brilliance, but I will also cover why he isn’t higher on my list, and it’s consistency. Kobe has proven to be an effective defender, and he has the determination to take over games on his own. Some of the knocks on Kobe has been his field goal percentage over the years (missed shots/off shooting nights), and his lack of willingness to trust his teammates. Kobe has now led his Lakers to 2 championships, and he was self admittedly Shaq’s sidekick for 3 Lakers championships. Kobe has shown the ability to make some real tough shots, but he has also shown the ability to miss around 60% of his shots in big games.

Kobe’s career shooting percentage in the NBA Finals is 41% (which means he misses 59% in the Finals). You can’t ignore the fact that on the game’s biggest stage, the NBA Finals, Kobe Bryant has played sub par every time but once.

Kobe has always taken a high volume of shots, and similar to Allen Iverson, if Kobe was able to limit his missed shots over the course of his career more, and show more consistency, I would rank him higher. Kobe’s been a questionable team leader for quite a few seasons in his career, had problems with teammates, but he did put this reputation of his on the backburner by being the leader of two championship teams at this point in time.

Historians always keep true perspective on one’s career, and do not fall in love with flash or peak value only. Kobe is an all time great, obviously to be in the top 20. The only thing really holding Kobe back is his inconsistency, and once again in the NBA Finals he simply did not dominate like a top 10-15 player of all time who’s been there so many times should. (I felt that I needed to explain why he’s not higher because some of his fans and the media overrate him.)

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:47 pm

mrsamtotheg wrote:

[Kobe’s career shooting percentage in the NBA Finals is 41%

41% is not that bad for a guy who takes a decent amount of threes.

Here are some other players FG% in the playoffs overall.

Bill Russell - 43%
John Havlicek - 44%
Bob Cousy - 34%

43% for Russell is much worse than 41% for Kobe.

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:54 pm

mrsamtotheg wrote:

[
and once again in the NBA Finals he simply did not dominate like a top 10-15 player of all time who’s been there so many times should.

There are other rounds in the playoffs aside from the finals. Kobe's career playoff numbers are virtually identical to his regular season numbers in points, assists, rebounds and FG%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nko01.html

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Bruce wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

[
and once again in the NBA Finals he simply did not dominate like a top 10-15 player of all time who’s been there so many times should.

There are other rounds in the playoffs aside from the finals. Kobe's career playoff numbers are virtually identical to his regular season numbers in points, assists, rebounds and FG%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nko01.html

his numbers s slighty go down in the playoffs overall, but he should not get punished for that, but guys ranked ahead of him, have raised their playoff averages and their finals averages ,kobes finals averages are pretty pathethic, an all time great would either get better when competition gets tougher or at least maintain respectable averages ,nothing is more clear that he is a volume scorer , than when he is in the finals, his legacy and ranking is overrated and hard to defend.

100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players

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