100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players

pgm · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:19 pm

Bruce wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

kobe bryant in the top 10 is bullshit , objectively he belongs between the top 20 to 25 range.

I would agree that ten is too high, but I think he's gotta be higher than 20. I mean, you;d have to say that he's the second best shooting guard ever, right? The dropoff is huge after Kobe to the third guy (Drexler or Gervin maybe).

I actually have Iverson at #3. Gervin is #4 (essentially the same--great scorers who never won, but Iverson has the MVP and a better post seasons). Sam Jones is #5 because people tend to rank the post season extremely high in the NBA (compared to other sports) and that's how I structured my list. The post season is probably the major reason Kobe is so high, but also his extremely good scoring seasons.

West is sometimes considered to be a two-guard, but I don't think he ever was. The Lakers never had a PG, so West had to fill that role. You can call that either way, though. Robertson had one season where he played SG because Cousy was a stupid coach, but one season hardly makes him a shooting guard. West was clearly the PG by the early '70s.

Quote:

Here's my top twenty.

1 - Air
2 - The Big Dipper
3 - Kareem
4 - Russell
5 - Magic
6 - Bird
7 - Oscar
8 - West
9 - Shaq
10 - Duncan
11 - Olajuwon
12 - Baylor
13 - Barkley
14 - Kobe
15 - LeBron
16 - Admiral
17 - Cousy
18 - Stockton
19 - Mailman
20 - Dr. J

I'd be interested to hear about Baylor over Kobe. Is it because of influence? Because then Mikan should be a lot higher (same with Erving). Or is it just a discounting of post-season success?

Pettit is noticeably lacking.

Quote:

David Robinson gets underrated because they didn't win until after Duncan arrived, but he had little help before that and the team had an incredible turnaround when he arrived. His stats are much better than Duncan and Hakeem's stats.

The lasting image in most people's minds is Olajuwon making Robinson look foolish in the post-season. But in the end, Olajuwon was a bit better in the All-NBA Teams, so he gets a slight edge for the regular season. Post season is a clear win for Olajuwon to me.

As for Duncan, what he does does not always show up in statistics. To me, he was the greatest player of the first half of the decade (he passed Shaq in about 2001 or 2002 and wasn't passed for about 5 years).

Quote:

I don't see Russell being better than Wilt or Kareem, and I don't think it's very close either. He was the best player on the best team, but nobody back then thought he was better than Wilt. He jusy had much better teammates and coaching than Wilt had. Basketball history is full of games and series where one team had by far the best player (Wilt) but the other team that beat him had the better team.

Russell played with team that were full of hall of famers, Wilt didn't have that ever.

Not true at all. Before Chamberlain played on the Sixers (i.e. Russell's prime), Russell won more MVPs. Russell won in '61, '62, '63 and '65. The All-NBA Team favors Chamberlain, but the point is the consensus was split. As this board is the site's list (from how I'm constructing it), Russell wins out. I would personally put Chamberlain higher, but I see the pro-Russell group's point.

Quote:

I don't buy the modern thinking that has Russell ahead of Wilt. That would be like saying that DiMaggio was better than Ted Williams. He just wasn't. You can't just judge players in team sports by how many championships they won.

No, not at all. The main thing Russell adds is he changed the way defense was played in the NBA. But more than that, he made rebounding as important as it is. And while Cousy was more important for making the fastbreak a lethal weapon, Russell was important for turning defensive stops or defensive rebounds into fastbreaks.

pgm · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:33 pm

Bruce wrote:

Just got off the phone with a real knowledgable NBA guy who says Kobe is top 5, ahead of magic, Bird, Oscar, Shaq, etc.....

Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Kobe? It's not an unjustifiable claim, I just don't see it. But, under the criteria I picked for this list,* Magic and Bird have to be above Kobe. Shaq, Duncan, Robertson and West are all on the same tier as Kobe (I have the first two over him based on my personal observations and the last two below him, but I'll concede a legitimate case can be made).

*The criteria I picked were simply "Regular-season accomplishments," "Post-season accomplishments" and "Impact on Basketball." I'll admit that they're quite vague and subjective. They're certainly nearly impossible to quantify. But I needed some sort of criteria to make a subjective list and this was the rough sketch that this list was based on. The three may or may not be rated equally. I keep trying to get others' input on the criteria with little success.

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:55 pm

pgm wrote:

I'd be interested to hear about Baylor over Kobe. Is it because of influence? Because then Mikan should be a lot higher (same with Erving). Or is it just a discounting of post-season success?

I was under the impression that Baylor had better stats than Kobe, but now that I see those win share numbers I must have been wrong about that. It's probably just a function of there being so many more possessions per game in Baylor's era, so his scoring numbers have to be adjusted downward.

As for post season success, baylor seems to have been better than Kobe in the playoffs, with averages of 27 points, 13 rebs and 4 assists per game, with the same FG% (44) as Kobe. I think that people who regard championships as all important don't really see what's going on. It's very possible that the best player in any season, or any series, is a player on the eventual losing team. The lakers got the finals so often because West and baylor were so great. But many people look at it as, "The Lakers lost in the finals so often because West and Baylor were not as great as Russell"

I've been refereing basketball for 15 years now, and it's usually the team the works better together as a unit that wins, not the team that has the best player.

West and Baylor all those years did not have Havlicek and heinson and Sam and KC Jones and Cousy and Red Aurbach. The team was the difference in those games. I can;t even offhand name any of the guys that West and baylor played with in the mid-60s...Mel Counts maybe?

pgm wrote:

Russell won more MVPs.

That's becaiuse the voters considered the MVP to be a different thing that the best player. Russell won MVPs in seasons where he did not start the all star game and did not make first team all league. Unfortunately, in all sports, MVP voters judge awards based on team success more than individual dominance. How else do you explain travesties like Joe DiMaggio winning the 1941 MVP over Ted Williams?

pgm wrote:

And while Cousy was more important for making the fastbreak a lethal weapon, Russell was important for turning defensive stops or defensive rebounds into fastbreaks.

Which means next to nothing now. Nobody fast breaks after rebounds anymore, and nobody has for decades.

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Bruce wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

[Kobe’s career shooting percentage in the NBA Finals is 41%

41% is not that bad for a guy who takes a decent amount of threes.

Here are some other players FG% in the playoffs overall.

Bill Russell - 43%
John Havlicek - 44%
Bob Cousy - 34%

43% for Russell is much worse than 41% for Kobe.

yeah I agree russell is lackluster as an offense player, probaly the best defensive player of all time, a great rebounder etc, and those other guys are not ranked ahead of kobe on any alltime list.

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:19 pm

Here's the career list for most PLAYOFF win shares:

Kobe is top ten already.

Erving is top ten on both the regular season and the playoff win shares lists. Maybe we're underrating him. The question is, how good (or not so good) was the ABA in the years that he was at his best. I saw him play in those days, and he more dominant than any non center I ever saw, including Jordan. In fact, I was at the last game ever in the ABA, the Nets won the championship in game 6 at home, I think against the Spurs.

Rank Player WS
1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
6. Tim Duncan 28.84
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Julius Erving* 26.89
9. Kobe Bryant 26.85
10. Jerry West* 26.75
11. Larry Bird* 24.83
12. Scottie Pippen* 23.58
13. Karl Malone* 22.99
14. Hakeem Olajuwon* 22.60
15. Dirk Nowitzki 22.08
16. John Stockton* 21.35
17. Chauncey Billups 20.80
18. Kevin McHale* 20.67
19. Horace Grant 20.00
20. Reggie Miller 19.90
21. Charles Barkley* 19.52
22. John Havlicek* 19.27
23. LeBron James 18.53
24. Robert Horry 18.22
25. David Robinson* 17.52
26. George Mikan* 16.97
27. Walt Frazier* 15.92
28. Dan Issel* 15.85
29. Robert Parish* 15.57
30. Clyde Drexler* 15.50
31. Ben Wallace 15.41
32. Elgin Baylor* 15.36
33. Rasheed Wallace 15.24
34. Sam Jones* 15.23
35. James Worthy* 14.84
36. Moses Malone* 14.80
37. Roger Brown 14.80
38. Ray Allen 14.63
39. Zelmo Beaty 14.57
40. Manu Ginobili 14.46
41. Jeff Hornacek 14.44
42. Jason Kidd 14.14
43. Patrick Ewing* 14.06
44. Dolph Schayes* 13.95
45. Dwyane Wade 13.71
46. Oscar Robertson* 13.65
47. Bobby Jones 13.36
48. Artis Gilmore* 13.19
49. Dennis Johnson* 13.16
50. Rick Barry* 13.15
51. Maurice Cheeks 13.14
52. Derek Fisher 13.04
53. Paul Pierce 12.99
54. Kevin Garnett 12.85
55. Wes Unseld* 12.71
56. Pau Gasol 12.67
57. Isiah Thomas* 12.55
58. Steve Nash 11.85
59. Byron Scott 11.81
60. Bob Pettit* 11.74
61. Dennis Rodman* 11.74
62. Elvin Hayes* 11.71
63. Terry Porter 11.60
64. Michael Cooper 11.43
65. Richard Hamilton 11.39
66. Don Nelson 11.25
67. Jimmy Jones 11.20
68. Charles Oakley 11.15
69. Gary Payton 11.13
70. Tayshaun Prince 11.05
71. Bob Dandridge 11.04
72. Mel Daniels 10.95
73. Cliff Hagan* 10.74
74. Bill Laimbeer 10.70
75. Sam Perkins 10.49
76. Chet Walker 10.25
77. Joe Dumars* 10.07
78. Gus Williams 10.07
79. Dikembe Mutombo 9.91
80. A.C. Green 9.76
81. Cedric Maxwell 9.75
82. George Gervin* 9.72
83. Danny Ainge 9.62
84. Frank Ramsey* 9.49
85. Shawn Kemp 9.47
86. Dan Majerle 9.46
87. Kevin Johnson 9.44
88. Dave Cowens* 9.38
89. Bill Sharman* 9.32
90. Dwight Howard 9.27
91. Freddie Lewis 9.25
92. Vern Mikkelsen* 9.16
93. Tom Heinsohn* 9.13
94. Bob Cousy* 9.07
95. Adrian Dantley* 8.99
96. Lamar Odom 8.90
97. Dale Davis 8.83
98. George McGinnis 8.80
99. Shawn Marion 8.76
100. Jerome Kersey 8.75

batman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:14 pm

I am surprised but pleased to see Rasheed Wallace so high. How is that number calculated?

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:08 pm

batman wrote:

I am surprised but pleased to see Rasheed Wallace so high. How is that number calculated?

Well, one reason he's so high is that you can only accumulate points if you are playing in playoff games and winning lots of them, and between the different teams he's been on, Rasheed has played in 177 playoff games, which is 16th all time.

Here's the explanation of the stat.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Bruce · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:13 pm

Bruce wrote:

Rank Player WS
27. Walt Frazier* 15.92

He did this in just 93 career playoff games. He's #11 of all time in win shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs. Notice that the guy who gets all this credit for winning 9 championships, Bill Russell, is only #25 in playoff win shares per 48 minutes, and well below The Stilt.

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2218
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
6. Jerry West* 0.2031
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
8. David Robinson* 0.1992
9. Tim Duncan 0.1991
10. Dwight Howard 0.1981
11. Walt Frazier* 0.1934
12. Charles Barkley* 0.1932
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.1929
14. Chauncey Billups 0.1918
15. Frank Ramsey* 0.1902
16. Dolph Schayes* 0.1890
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.1887
18. Baron Davis 0.1886
19. Dwyane Wade 0.1867
20. Shaquille O'Neal 0.1842
21. Paul Arizin* 0.1827
22. Manu Ginobili 0.1815
23. Reggie Miller 0.1799
24. Oscar Robertson* 0.1783
25. Bill Russell* 0.1778

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Bruce wrote:

Rank Player WS
27. Walt Frazier* 15.92

He did this in just 93 career playoff games. He's #11 of all time in win shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs. Notice that the guy who gets all this credit for winning 9 championships, Bill Russell, is only #25 in playoff win shares per 48 minutes, and well below The Stilt.

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2218
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2067
6. Jerry West* 0.2031
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
8. David Robinson* 0.1992
9. Tim Duncan 0.1991
10. Dwight Howard 0.1981
11. Walt Frazier* 0.1934
12. Charles Barkley* 0.1932
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.1929
14. Chauncey Billups 0.1918
15. Frank Ramsey* 0.1902
16. Dolph Schayes* 0.1890
17. Hakeem Olajuwon* 0.1887
18. Baron Davis 0.1886
19. Dwyane Wade 0.1867
20. Shaquille O'Neal 0.1842
21. Paul Arizin* 0.1827
22. Manu Ginobili 0.1815
23. Reggie Miller 0.1799
24. Oscar Robertson* 0.1783
25. Bill Russell* 0.1778

yo bruce this is off topic but how do you feel about chuck berry being ranked ahead of bob dylan on the greatest songwriters list.I got chuck ahead of dylan.

Bruce · **Posted:** Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:34 am

mrsamtotheg wrote:

yo bruce this is off topic but how do you feel about chuck berry being ranked ahead of bob dylan on the greatest songwriters list.I got chuck ahead of dylan.

I remember some asshole in the old forum who said that Chuck was not a great lyricist and should not be in the top 25 or 40 lyricists, remember that schmuck?

Chuck certainly has more individual songs that more different artists performed over the years. It's not like many people are gonna do their version of "Desolation Row" or "Visions Of Johanna."

I'm not that interested in songwriting. To me, it doesn't matter who writes the songs, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers.

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

Bruce wrote:

mrsamtotheg wrote:

yo bruce this is off topic but how do you feel about chuck berry being ranked ahead of bob dylan on the greatest songwriters list.I got chuck ahead of dylan.

I remember some asshole in the old forum who said that Chuck was not a great lyricist and should not be in the top 25 or 40 lyricists, remember that schmuck?

Chuck certainly has more individual songs that more different artists performed over the years. It's not like many people are gonna do their version of "Desolation Row" or "Visions Of Johanna."

I'm not that interested in songwriting. To me, it doesn't matter who writes the songs, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers.

I remember that jackass, ha thats a good point about the covers too, I guess in the end its a who cares thing per se for me too, I listen to jazz guys perform the same songs that they never wrote but it all sounds good.

pgm · **Posted:** Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:00 am

Bruce wrote:

Unfortunately, in all sports, MVP voters judge awards based on team success more than individual dominance. How else do you explain travesties like Joe DiMaggio winning the 1941 MVP over Ted Williams?

It was more about the story. I'm well aware about the Wilt/Russell All-NBA vs. MVP thing. It was also different people voting (I think one was players/coaches; the other was sports writers, but don't quote me on that). I'm just saying it wasn't unheard of for people to consider Russell better. I've seen a season recap video as late as 1967 calling Russell the most dominant player in the game. There were certainly many who thought Russell was better. I happen to disagree, but I deferred to the board consensus, which seems to value championships highly (I'm not sure I consistently applied it, but I tried).

Quote:

pgm wrote:

And while Cousy was more important for making the fastbreak a lethal weapon, Russell was important for turning defensive stops or defensive rebounds into fastbreaks.

Which means next to nothing now. Nobody fast breaks after rebounds anymore, and nobody has for decades.

Haha. Sadly true. Duncan is a pretty good outlet passer and I've seen the Spurs break on boards at times, but you're pretty much right. If the guard doesn't get the rebound, it's very rare to see a fastbreak. However, it was a major weapon until the '90s, making Russell's influence important.

Bruce wrote:

Erving is top ten on both the regular season and the playoff win shares lists. Maybe we're underrating him. The question is, how good (or not so good) was the ABA in the years that he was at his best. I saw him play in those days, and he more dominant than any non center I ever saw, including Jordan. In fact, I was at the last game ever in the ABA, the Nets won the championship in game 6 at home, I think against the Spurs.

I think it was against the Nuggets, but a powerful laziness is preventing me from looking it up. It was certainly one of the great performances of all time (and great playoffs and great years). Unfortunately, the board decided to knock off ABA play, much to my dismay. I tried to keep some trace of it--influence/impact on basketball from ABA play is in. They just won't let me use the stats (I've tried to argue the ABA was on parody, the ABA beat the NBA in head-to-head matchups, ABA players were instrumental on every great team post-merger, etc., but none of it seemed to sink in.

pgm · **Posted:** Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:52 am

Btw, if you want to see what role Russell played in the offense, this breaks it down pretty well:
copied for the appropriate time

I've also seen Russell carry the Celtics offensively (typically against the Lakers since they had weak centers in most of those finals). Offense was his strength, but he was certainly present.

Bruce · **Posted:** Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:42 am

Here's an interesting list, the number of times that each player led the league in win shares. It's sort of an MVP of the stats. Neil Johnston is rated as being the best player in the league 5 times.

Win Shares
1. Michael Jordan* 9
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 9
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 8
4. Neil Johnston* 5
5. George Mikan* 3
6. Moses Malone* 2
Tim Duncan 2
Shaquille O'Neal 2
Larry Bird* 2
Dirk Nowitzki 2
Karl Malone* 2
Bob Feerick 2
Kevin Garnett 2
David Robinson* 2
LeBron James 2

And here's the yearly leaders:

Season Lg Player WS Tm
2010-11 NBA LeBron James 15.59 MIA
2009-10 NBA LeBron James 18.46 CLE
2008-09 NBA LeBron James 20.25 CLE
2007-08 NBA Chris Paul 17.79 NOH
2006-07 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 16.34 DAL
2005-06 NBA Dirk Nowitzki 17.72 DAL
2004-05 NBA Kevin Garnett 16.11 MIN
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 18.33 MIN
2002-03 NBA Tim Duncan 16.45 SAS
2001-02 NBA Tim Duncan 17.81 SAS
2000-01 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 14.94 LAL
1999-00 NBA Shaquille O'Neal 18.65 LAL
1998-99 NBA Karl Malone* 9.62 UTA
1997-98 NBA Karl Malone* 16.35 UTA
1996-97 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.30 CHI
1995-96 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.43 CHI
1994-95 NBA David Robinson* 17.46 SAS
1993-94 NBA David Robinson* 19.98 SAS
1992-93 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.24 CHI
1991-92 NBA Michael Jordan* 17.73 CHI
1990-91 NBA Michael Jordan* 20.30 CHI
1989-90 NBA Michael Jordan* 18.99 CHI
1988-89 NBA Michael Jordan* 19.80 CHI
1987-88 NBA Michael Jordan* 21.23 CHI
1986-87 NBA Michael Jordan* 16.89 CHI
1985-86 NBA Larry Bird* 15.81 BOS
1984-85 NBA Larry Bird* 15.67 BOS
1983-84 NBA Adrian Dantley* 14.61 UTA
1982-83 NBA Moses Malone* 15.10 PHI
1981-82 NBA Moses Malone* 15.42 HOU
1980-81 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.26 LAL
1979-80 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.84 LAL
1978-79 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 14.38 LAL
1977-78 NBA David Thompson* 12.70 DEN
1976-77 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.81 LAL
1975-76 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 17.01 LAL
ABA Julius Erving* 17.72 NYA
1974-75 NBA Bob McAdoo* 17.81 BUF
ABA Julius Erving* 17.58 NYA
1973-74 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 18.45 MIL
ABA Julius Erving* 16.48 NYA
1972-73 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 21.86 MIL
ABA Artis Gilmore* 18.49 KEN
1971-72 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 25.37 MIL
ABA Artis Gilmore* 19.79 KEN
1970-71 NBA Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 22.31 MIL
ABA Zelmo Beaty 16.04 UTS
1969-70 NBA Jerry West* 15.15 LAL
ABA Spencer Haywood 17.10 DNR
1968-69 NBA Willis Reed* 14.69 NYK
ABA Jimmy Jones 16.09 NOB
1967-68 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.38 PHI
ABA Connie Hawkins* 17.87 PTP
1966-67 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.87 PHI
1965-66 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 21.42 PHI
1964-65 NBA Oscar Robertson* 16.95 CIN
1963-64 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 24.98 SFW
1962-63 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 20.94 SFW
1961-62 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 23.11 PHW
1960-61 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 18.83 PHW
1959-60 NBA Wilt Chamberlain* 17.01 PHW
1958-59 NBA Bob Pettit* 14.75 STL
1957-58 NBA Dolph Schayes* 13.73 SYR
1956-57 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.68 PHW
1955-56 NBA Neil Johnston* 13.92 PHW
1954-55 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.39 PHW
1953-54 NBA Neil Johnston* 18.30 PHW
1952-53 NBA Neil Johnston* 15.33 PHW
1951-52 NBA Paul Arizin* 16.01 PHW
1950-51 NBA George Mikan* 23.43 MNL
1949-50 NBA George Mikan* 21.13 MNL
1948-49 BAA George Mikan* 20.86 MNL
1947-48 BAA Bob Feerick 10.52 WSC
1946-47 BAA Bob Feerick 18.59 WSC

mrsamtotheg · **Joined:** Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:09 am **Posts:** 252

thank god , we can debate this stuff while a season is going on.

100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players

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