Keith Moon.

Yes?

I think Moon is by far the most important drummer in rock.

I think that he's just as important if not more.

What about 21st century drummers?


Mastodon....

Brann Dailor and quite a few other modern metal drummers are already represented on this list... what are you driving at?

I didn't look at the list. I was just talking about great drummers from this century.

Just as important as who?

First change I'd like to make would be getting everyone's near unanimous decisions on this list fixed. How's this for top 5:

1. Bill Bruford
2. John Bohnam
3. Neil Peart
4. Keith Moon
5. Ginger Baker

If you guys can show me by this criteria that Moon beats Peart, I'll put Moon at 3. I can't deny Peart's massive, massive influence that's nearly on par with everyone's but Moon, Bohnam, and Ringo, and of course his innovation and creativity are all on par with everyone but arguably Baker and Bruford (and on par with Moon for creativity).

Moon v Peart (my somewhat uneducated opinion):
Influence Moon
Innovation Moon
Creativity Moon (I'm sorry, it's just not close)
Tech Peart easily
Versatility Peart?

I'd honestly be surprised if I were *that* wrong with this analysis...

Bruford for #1...the change I've been hoping for since I first started looking at DDD in 2005 (!). I actually pushed for it back then but didn't know enough about those ahead of him and about drumming in general to push for it eloquently back then. #7 did always seem insultingly low, almost like a 'sympathy position' for a dude the drum forum heads didn't know what to do with.

But that said...I'm curious on your take reg. Bruford v Bonham under the criteria. I do think Bruford has *mastered* the drum kit as an art form like no other in the instrument's history, at least in rock. He is in my mind, in his own league, his own class, above everyone else when it comes to artistic achievement and continual growth on the drums over a career.

TBH I even have a hard time seeing Peart positioned above Baker, you know, the greatest percussionist of the 60s (first great era of rock musicianship/most important decade for rock) and the guy most responsible of *anyone* in rock's history for elevating rock drums into an art form taken seriously, like jazz drumming.

How is innovation Moon? With all the equipment Peart innovated, way more than the roto toms, and his techniques, I'm curious what Moon innovated.

Here's how I see it:

Influence: Moon, it's actually much closer than you think but leaning towards Moon.
Innovation: Peart
Creativity: Moon or Tie. How much about Peart do you really know outside of just Rush? I used to think he was just you know, the guy who played for Rush but then I really found how extremely important, groundbreaking, and influential he is to drums, I can't deny that no matter how much I prefer the other drummers.
Skill: Peart
Versatility: Peart.


So Moon gets Influence and Creativity, Peart gets everything else? If Influence is still 2 and innovation is 1.5, we have 3 vs. 3.5 for Peart. This is how the Jew left the rating system. I really can't move Peart under Moon because of innovation.


Baker is trickier. Let's see how I'd do it:

Peart vs. Baker:

Influence: Tie, possibly leaning towards Peart. Yes Baker is indirectly influential to tons of rock drummers and drummers OUTSIDE of rock, but within rock after Peart came along nearly everyone's been influence by Peart in some way as well. As I've said, as much as I don't want to, I can't deny that Peart is huge. Next to Bohnam, Moon, and Ringo, I'd say Peart is the next most influential then Baker. Out of many of the modern metal/alternative/prog/fusion drummers, some were directly influenced by Baker, if nearly all indirectly, but tons more in all those genres were directly influenced by Peart, if not all indirectly due to his giant impact on drumming as a whole. On a multi genre list Baker definitely has the edge, for just Rock I think Peart might. I'll tie them for now
Innovation: Baker
Creativity: Tie. Peart's extremely creative, nearly as much if not moreso than Baker. I know both extremely well. Would you say Moon is more creative than Baker? I would and that's the limit, just because of his approach to the drum set, the next peaks of creativity belong to Peart (The echelons of creativity belong to Bruford and Bozzio IMO).
Skill: Peart
Versatility: Tie or Baker.

Let's have influenced tied and do it that way. Baker actually has Peart that way it seems by winning innovation, I'd like to give peart influence but I won't due to indirect and I'll tie it. So Baker takes Peart. Reasonable. I wish Jew were here so he could tell me why Peart was number 1 all these years O_O.

Baker vs. Moon:

Influence: Moon
Innovation: Baker
Creativity: Moon
Skill: Baker
Versatility: Baker.

Bleh Baker beats Moon. I guess this is one of those 'unspoken rules' we have that some people deserve to be higher. Alright, here's my top 5 then:

1. Bruford
2. Bohnam
3. Moon
4. Baker
5. Peart (since it seem Baker beats Peart and I've already shown many times so do Bruford and Bohnam)

Also, Bruford vs. Bohnam and Baker:

Bohnam
Influence: Bohnam (don't need to say why)
Innovation: Tie (Bohnam's innovations were less to the drum kit and more to his style, techniques, pedal usage, and beats which have been used in his name ever since, Bruford for poly rhythms and electronic drum kits, and style as well)
Creativity: Bruford, the epitome of creative and brilliant drumming in rock IMO
Skill: Bruford
Versatility: Bruford

Baker
Influence: Baker
Innovation: Tie, leaning on Baker, yet Baker didn't do enough overall for the kit other than double bass and bringing jazz style, which is huge, and Baker brought a sophistication to rock never before seen. But Bruford also added lots of jazz to his playing, his poly rhythm usage was huge and extremely important, and his electronic kits were way ahead of their time. Also, Bruford may be the most sophisticated rock drummer I've ever heard. I don't know, maybe it goes to Bruford as well?
Creativity: Bruford
Skill Bruford
Versatility: Bruford

SO bruford for #1. Making the changes.

Also moved Ringo right above Ian Paice, just because as much as I love Paice, he's the point where I don't see him or the other drummers under him beating Ringo:

Influence: Ringo by a lot
Innovation: Ringo. I don't know what Paice actually innovated, but Ringo did a lot for drumming worldwide. We also seem to forget that he used tons of world percussion instruments as well with the Beatles, something we tend to give credit for.
Creativity: Tie or Paice. Ringo's extremely creative and very underrated for it, just creative enough to tie Paice's amazing style, but even if Paice took this he wouldn't win due to how we weigh the criteria.
Skill: Paice
Versatility: I'd give it to Ringo actually.

Even giving Paice creativity Ringo wins on versatility and influence.


For now I'm going to put Peart at 3 until further discussion, I really think Ariel is selling him a bit short but I need more input. I do think he wins the criteria against Moon and if he takes Influence over Baker (which he could) he's a clear 3.

Being the first serious 'lead drummer' in rock history, the main dude who inspired that whole movement/trend, is a FAR more important innovation in the grand scheme of things than anything Peart did.

What 'techniques' did Peart innovate exactly anyway?



I don't think influence is *that* close dude. Again, Moon was the progenitor of 'lead' drumming...that's a BIG deal. Indirect influence SHOULD NOT be considered inferior to direct influence in any way. Peart may be even more name dropped in interviews with modern drummers than Moon but that is not relevant in any way other than that it shows he has a lot of direct as opposed to indirect influence. Moon's influence is so pervasive I reckon that literally ever rock drummer since the late 60s has had to reckon with it in one way or another...analogous to Entwistle on bass.

Still not seeing how Peart takes Moon in innovation. My understanding is that 'innovation' as a criteria 'round these here parts (DDD, at least in the bass forum traditionally iirc) is gauged at least in part by HOW SIGNIFICANT the innovation was in the grand scheme of the instrument's history stylistically etc. 'Influence' is then a separate criteria 'liberated' as it were from innovation somewhat as a non-innovative drummer can still be *highly* influential due to fame/popularity etc (see Ulrich, Lars). This is basically the rationale behind why influence and innovation are separate criteria as I understand it, and it's the only way the two criteria as separate make sense at any rate.

I consider the notion that Peart is on Moon's level creativity wise laughable tbh. You yourself said last year in a really awesomely written post about Moon that he is in your opinion the most creative rock drummer EVER (emphasis yours). He's probably the most distinctive rock drummer in the genre's history, to these ears (well, along with Bruford anyway). Lots of people do a good Peart impression it seems to me, e.g. Portnoy...I've almost never heard someone do a successful Moon impression on drums.

Let me make something very clear as someone who was around at this forum's (DDD forum)
inception in 2005. The 'creativity' criteria was invented specifically - it was invented in the bass forum, actually - as being a judge of ONE thing, how creative a player's playing is. Innovation, even originality (whether the player's style is 'new' to rock) aren't relevant. It's just how creative their playing is.

(Not trying to sound confrontational, btw, sorry if I do...text is a shitty medium for communication)



If you think Peart is on Baker's level much less beyond him in influence in rock drumming, you simply misunderstand influence as a criteria. There's no way around it.

I think Danny Carey, Dave Lombardo, the dude from Blood Sweat & Tears probably, hell even Ringo are more creative than Peart. I'm being honest here. That's not a knock on Peart, he's great, very very great. He's just not quite tops.

How much does Peart win by in skill anyway?

I see literally zero reason to believe Peart can even potentially tie Baker in versatility btw, Baker's played rock, jazz and frickin world music extremely adeptly...



Peart being #1 was a travesty and a cancer on this list since 2005. I don't know why he was immovable all those years. I never will. I think it has to do with a general lack of familiarity on the part of most posters with artistically superior drummers like Bruford and Palmer.