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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:40 am 
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So...

61. Jerry Cantrell
62. Nas
63. Robbie Robertson
64. Richard Thompson
65. Sting

???


Last edited by Deany on Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:49 am 
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I'm not gonna bitch about Townsend and Fagan anymore if it makes you happy, but now you're just being mean.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:58 am 
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Sorry about that mistype. I'll go fix Townshend and Fagen now.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:43 am 
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Yeeha!


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Deany wrote:
51. Michael Stipe
52. Frank Zappa
53. 2Pac
54. Patti Smith
55. Don Henley
56. Mick Jagger
57. Gil Scott-Heron
58. Beck
59. Jimi Hendrix
60. Chris Cornell

???

I think 7 of these are fine, but I doubt that Henley, Hendrix, and Cornell should be this high. Two that I'd put here are Nas and John Prine. For the last spot, I'd go with Curtis Mayfield, Robbie Robertson, Bono, Jay-Z, or Conor Oberst. I don't know much about Laurie Anderson or Mark E. Smith; it's possible that they could be here too.

Considering who should go in this range is making some of the top 50 inclusions look questionable to me. Do Kurt Cobain, David Bowie, George Harrison, Grandmaster Flash, and Jon Anderson really belong ahead of all of the lyricists mentioned in this post? I know Flash is here largely for his influence, but putting him ahead of Nas seems to weight influence rather heavily.

I'd recommend that soon, instead of going 10 at a time, we put together a list of every lyricist who might possibly be included in the top 100, and then narrow down that list before ordering it. There won't be much difference between who should be at #61 and #100. Going 10 at a time is likely to result in lyricists who are good but not good enough for the list getting included, because less of an effort would be made to compare them to everyone who might be included.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:21 pm 
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I like the idea of a possibles list. It's true that our current way of doing this seems rather random. Anyway some thoughts on your suggestions:
Cobain and Bowie are very acclaimed lyricists as far as I know (same for Henley and Cornell), and the grandmaster gets quite some points for influence, though I don't think he necessarily should be ahead of Nas. Each of them should be in the Top 100 at least but I'm not sure about how high they belong. Don't know about Hendrix, never thought of him as an extremely great lyricist.

Is John Prine really rock? If he is, shouldn't Johnny Cash be considered rock, too? I think that'd be pushing the lines a little too far.

Deany, what do you think of a nomination list first and trying to order them after that? It would definitely prevent us from missing out on some important names.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Deany wrote:
51. Michael Stipe
52. Frank Zappa
53. 2Pac
54. Patti Smith
55. Don Henley
56. Mick Jagger
57. Gil Scott-Heron
58. Beck
59. Jimi Hendrix
60. Chris Cornell

???


Was Beck really ever a good lyricist or just interesting? Also, did we put Biggie Smalls on the list yet? I was always under the impression that most considered him a better lyricist than 2pac, but I wouldn't be the one to tell you that. Also, is Martin the main lyricist for Coldplay? They have some damn good lyrical performances, I'd say Clocks and Rush of Blood are point enough, though there are definitely songs devoid of lyrical expression, but every artist is guilty of that at some point.

EDIT: Nevermind on Biggie, I see him.

OH yeah, Billy Joel is a pretty darn good lyricist if I recall, I'd say he's better than Jagger, though Sympathy for the Devil is a really good song...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:25 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
I like the idea of a possibles list. It's true that our current way of doing this seems rather random. Anyway some thoughts on your suggestions:
Cobain and Bowie are very acclaimed lyricists as far as I know (same for Henley and Cornell), and the grandmaster gets quite some points for influence, though I don't think he necessarily should be ahead of Nas. Each of them should be in the Top 100 at least but I'm not sure about how high they belong. Don't know about Hendrix, never thought of him as an extremely great lyricist.

Is John Prine really rock? If he is, shouldn't Johnny Cash be considered rock, too? I think that'd be pushing the lines a little too far.

Deany, what do you think of a nomination list first and trying to order them after that? It would definitely prevent us from missing out on some important names.


Cobain and Bowie are very acclaimed artists, but I think mostly for reasons other than lyrics. I'm not completely dismissing them as lyricists, I just mean in comparison to other artists that could be in that range. I've haven't heard of Henley or Cornell being especially credited for that, at least not on the level of these other high ranking artists.

I think Prine and Cash are very different cases, so I don't think whether one is rock would say much about whether the other is rock. I think of Prine as being part of the early '70s singer-songwriter movement, like Jackson Browne and James Taylor. He is more country-influenced than either than them, or more so than Taylor at least, but I also think Prine's Dylan influence is more obvious than it is for either of them. He does vary from album to album, and has an album or 2 that are pretty much straight country. But usually I think he's more toward singer/songwriter soft rock.

CRJ, I do think Beck is pretty esteemed for his lyrics, and Deany's suggested placement for him is pretty close to right, though I'd slip Nas and Prine ahead of him. I don't think Joel should be ahead of Jagger, but I do think he should make the list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:32 am 
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Brian wrote:
I think Prine and Cash are very different cases, so I don't think whether one is rock would say much about whether the other is rock. I think of Prine as being part of the early '70s singer-songwriter movement, like Jackson Browne and James Taylor. He is more country-influenced than either than them, or more so than Taylor at least, but I also think Prine's Dylan influence is more obvious than it is for either of them. He does vary from album to album, and has an album or 2 that are pretty much straight country. But usually I think he's more toward singer/songwriter soft rock.

John Denver (not necessarily for this list but for rock lists in general)?

EDIT: Also Lee Hazlewood?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Deany wrote:
51. Michael Stipe
52. Frank Zappa
53. 2Pac
54. Patti Smith
55. Don Henley
56. Mick Jagger
57. Gil Scott-Heron
58. Beck
59. Jimi Hendrix
60. Chris Cornell

???

Considering who should go in this range is making some of the top 50 inclusions look questionable to me. Do Kurt Cobain, David Bowie, George Harrison, Grandmaster Flash, and Jon Anderson really belong ahead of all of the lyricists mentioned in this post? I know Flash is here largely for his influence, but putting him ahead of Nas seems to weight influence rather heavily.


Really? Those two are leagues better and more linguistically skilled and praised than anyone that's been listed in top 50+.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:55 pm 
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CRJ, perhaps you could clarify what you meant. It sounds like you're saying you think Bowie and should be the top 2. Surely you don't think they're leagues better or more linguistically skilled and praised than Bob Dylan.

EDIT: Also, I don't think "linguistically" is quite what you mean. "Verbally" maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:34 pm 
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The other way, they are better than everyone that is in the 50 and greater number range (51,52,53,54...60...) that way. On top of the verbal and vocab skills, I'm not going to get into Bowie's biting satire, descriptive storytelling, and deep metaphor usage. It's all there for the world to see, and 34 is a pretty damn good placement. I've already mentioned that Harrison has great satirical ability and some awesome wit (taxman piggies) and some of the most beautiful emotional evocation (Something) while having some terrific metaphorical and verbal works (Within you Without you) and overall linguistically stunning performances in all aspects (While my Guitar Gently Weeps). I could not see either being lower then they are, but I have no qualms about others moving up.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:17 am 
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I think we could scrap 41-below and make a possibles list:

Bernie Taupin
Grandmaster Flash
Brian Wilson
Jerry Leiber
Ian Anderson
Suzanne Vega
Notorious BIG
Tracy Chapman
Thom Yorke
Jon Anderson
Michael Stipe
Frank Zappa
2Pac
Patti Smith
Don Henley
Mick Jagger
Gil Scott-Heron
Beck
Jimi Hendrix
Chris Cornell
Jerry Cantrell
Nas
Richard Thompson
Robbie Robertson
Sting
Mark Knopfler
Big Daddy Kane
Brian May
John Mellencamp
Bono
Jay-Z
Curtis Mayfield
Conor Oberst
Billy Joel
John Prine
Nick Drake
Joe Jackson
Laurie Anderson


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:26 pm 
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James Hetfield and Dax Riggs are locks for that possibles list, as is Geezer Butler (influence). Tom Araya is very possible for the possibles list (lol)...I would argue Dio should make the possibles list without hesitation. Oh and whoever wrote lyrics for Wishbone Ash


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Lyricists Of Rock 'n' Roll
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:13 am 
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Considering the very limited linguistic abilities of all those metal lyricists, I'd say most should be left out, seeing that they overall haven't varied that much within their style... Of course Hetfield and Araya are more agressive than Butler and Dio but the style isn't that different to be honest.. And with metal being, to say the least, not very acclaimed for its lyrics, I don't think there should be more than at most Geezer (for influence) there..


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