And what about having criteria such as acclaim, skill and influence? I mean the criteria we are already working with.

There are a lot of great lyricists who weren't particularly socially conscious: Mitchell, Cohen, Browne.

I thought each one of these threesome has a lot of political lyrics but maybe it's not the same.

Browne wasn't very political during his peak years, but he was later.

Cohen has a handful of political songs but not enough to call him a political songwriter.

Ballet For A Girl In Buchannon: Make Me Smile by James Pankow of Chicago, 1970

Children play in the park, they don't know
I'm alone in the dark, even though
Time and time again I see your face smiling inside

Aqualung by Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull, 1971

Sitting on a park bench
Eyeing little girls with bad intent

Have any of you ever noticed the similarities between Dionne Warwick's 1964 hit, "Walk On By" and Chicago's 1988 hit, "Look Away"? Walk On By was written by Burt Bacharach and Hal David. Look Away was written by Diane Warren.

Walk On By

If you see me walking down the street
And I start to cry each time we meet
Walk on by, walk on by
Make believe that you don't see the tears
Just let me grieve in private
Cause each time I see you
I break down and cry
Walk on by, walk on by

Look Away

If you see me walking by
And the tears are in my eyes
Look away, baby look away
If we meet on the street someday
and I don't know what to say
Look away, baby look away
Don't look at me
I don't want you to see me this way

So are we going to redo this list and include rappers or what?

I don't see what'd be a problem. I've been ranking rappers and everyone else on the same criteria and it works fine. It's all just words. I'm not even sure what criteria is being used on this particular list.

It doesn't seem like the rap/hip-hop lyricist list uses that criteria. Unless that all goes under linguistic skill which it probably should. Yes, rapper's will rightfully do very well in that criteria and so will the best non-rap lyricists. Any of the criteria you bring up for rappers will be counted in linguistic skill and acclaim.

"Flow" and "rhythm" are entirely subjective.

Flow would still be counted under acclaim if they are praised for it. Rhythm sounds more like the delivery but i'm not too sure.

Things like "flow" and "rhythm" would fall both under linguistic ability (our own opinion on their ability) or acclaim (other people's opinion on their ability).

Leonard Cohen's acceptance speach for 2012 PEN New England Award for Song Lyrics of Literary Excellence:


Him and Berry were the first recipients.

how i would rank the rap lyricists (which is different that how i would rank them as "emcees" on that particular list, because there is a performance aspect to that whereas this is purely for pen-on-paper).

1. Rakim... the father of modern rap lyrics
2. Nas... the standard bearer for modern rap lyrics
3. Big Daddy Kane... the major influence on multisyllable rhymes
4. Melle Mel... the first true great rap lyricist
5. Kool G Rap... another major influence on multis and internal rhymes
6. Chuck D... rap's most socially aware and important lyrical voice
7. Notorious B.I.G.... great storyteller with excellent complex rhymes
8. KRS-One... the lyrical foundation of gangsta rap, and then later socially conscious lyricist in the Chuck D style
9. Slick Rick... all-time greatest storyteller in rap history
10. 2Pac... rap's "poet", an introspective storyteller
11. Eminem... Nas-like complexity with a mix of humor, horror, introspection and major themes about the relationship between artists and media
12. Jay-Z... brilliant lyricist turned brilliant businessman who simplified his lyrical approach for good reasons but will always have those early albums as proof of his talent

^ranked by "greatness". if this were a personal assessment, you could bet your ass Mos Def would be high as shit.

Thanks for your input Pave. I'll have to look them over.

I had a good list going on but nobody ever seemed interested.