Since we're including rap, I'd say Rakim is easily top 25.

He should be in the top fifty.



Any sources?

Reading over this thread...good stuff. A couple quick comments.

1. The Man is right when he says Cohen is the only guy ever who can rival Dylan in terms of skill.

2. Macca's best stuff is as good as anyone else's. Ever. Seriously. "Eleanor Rigby".

3. Ian Anderson cannot leave the top 40. Read "Thick as a Brick". Read "Wind Up". Read "My God". His ability with wit and irony and wry humor are astounding and as good as anyone's in rock; and his ability to write from the heart and be moving like in "Wind Up" is amazing too.

4. George Harrison is pretty fucking good, like not that far behind John and Paul.

Carry on.

What are your thoughts on what the top 50 should be, ariel?

Thanks for asking, I'm flattered :-)

Looking at the list (the old, shitty list)...

These people need raised into the top 50 imo:

Pete Brown (seriously)
Jimi Hendrix
Syd Barrett (seriously)
Robert Plant (very underrated because of all of his annoying wailing and 'oohs' and 'aahs', he could write a damn good lyric...Stairway, Achilles Last Stand, etc plus the wit of something like Black Dog)
Thom Yorke (him not being top 50 is absurd imo)
JON ANDERSON (who's not even on the list currently...maybe not top 50 worthy but he's good)
Dax Riggs (I dare you to find me a more skilled metal lyricist)

Otherwise, James Hetfield deserves a very solid spot (Load has some of the best lyrics I've ever read in rock); I'd put Dio somewhere on the list; Geezer Butler NEEDS a spot for essentially birthing the type of lyrical imagery and style that metal has always used since him; and I'd strongly consider spots for Kerry King and (especially) Tom Araya from Slayer...Tom is definitely a necessary inclusion for the top 100.

I personally think Lennon needs #2, and I also think Townshend is slightly high atm.

Paul McCartney should absolutely be top 20 imo, I don't think there's any arguing this. George Harrison is top 40 minimum. Ian Anderson is top 40 minimum.

Oh and Peter Gabriel is amazing too.

There's my thoughts right now...Cheers

First of all, I'd like to say thanks, Ariel, for bringing up something to discuss. This thread's been dead for a while.

Anyway, I'd say Hendrix and Yorke are probably top 50, while Plant probably falls a bit short. While he can write good lyrics, he also has his share of duds. Jon Anderson, if I recall, was discussed (at length) a few pages back. While he's arguably lacking in influence, I think he probably qualifies for the top 60 or 70.

Not a metal expert, but if what you say about Butler is true, I'd say he's at least top 60.

I personally think the top 5 is perfect: Young beats Lennon in everything but influence. Townsend, meanwhile, does well in all the criteria: the rock opera is very influential; Tommy and Quadrophenia, to name two of his albums, are universally praised as lyrical masterpieces; the latter is probably enough to guarantee him a solid score in linguistic capability and uniqueness. He's definitely top 10.

Macca is a very unique case, because his influence is huge, but he doesn't do as well as the others above him in the other three criteria. Let's take, say, Macca and Warren Zevon (who isn't top 20):

Influence: Macca
Acclaim: Zevon
Linguistic Ability: Zevon
Uniqueness: Zevon

I was actually one of the posters who were arguing for McCartney to stay top 20, but I'll concede that he's probably more of a 21-30 guy. Harrison could be top 40 though, and he's a top 50 lock.

Sources for what? He's the greatest rap lyricist of all time.

As some of us, myself included, may be very unsure about which hip hop lyricists would be the best inclusions for this list, I'll include here the upper part of the DDD rap lyricists list, and some of the comments from the thread. First, here's the top 40 from the list:

1. Rakim (Eric B. & Rakim, Solo)
2. Notorious B.I.G.
3. Big Daddy Kane
4. Nas
5. Andre 3000 (Outkast)
6. Jay Z
7. Kool G. Rap
8. Slick Rick
9. Eminem
10. KRS One (Boogie Down Production, Solo)
11. Mos Def
12. Posdnous (De La Soul)
13. Black Thought (The Roots)
14. Redman
15. Common
16. Big L
17. Ghostface Killah (Wu Tang Clan, solo)
18. Sadat X (Brand Nubian, solo)
19. Pharoahe Monche (Organized Konfusion)
20. Big Punisher
21. Ras Kass
22. Raekwon (Wu Tang Clan)
23. Yukmouth (The Luniz, solo)
24. Aceyalone
25. Talib Kweli
26. Jeru the Damaja
27. Jadakiss (The LOX, Solo)
28. Masta Ace
29. Prodigy (Mobb Deep)
30. AZ
31. Cee Lo (Goodie MOB)
32. LL Cool J
33. 2pac
34. Xzibit
35. Fabulous
36. GZA/Genious (Wu Tang Clan)
37. Lauryn Hill (The Fugees, Solo)
38. Aesop Rock
39. Freddie Foxxx
40. MC Lyte

Pave posted a suggested top 25 in that thread:

1. Rakim
2. 2Pac
3. Notorious B.I.G.
4. Nas
5. Jay Z
6. KRS One
7. Big Daddy Kane
--pretty much a lock for top 7, right? even in a different order maybe
8. LL Cool J
9. Ice Cube (wtf is he doing at 69?)
10. Slick Rick
11. Kool G. Rap
12. Redman
13. Andre 3000
14. Eminem
15. Mos Def
16. Common
17. Chuck D (78?)
18. Pharoahe Monche
19. GZA/Genius
20. Black Thought
21. Ghostface Killah
22. Big Punisher
23. Talib Kweli
24. Big L
25. AZ

JB Trance had this comment: "Rakim, Nas, Jay-Z, LL Cool J, 2Pac and Biggie are all Top 10 hip hop lyricists and MCs without a doubt."

The editor of the list made this comment:

"I focused on skill and influence as a rhyme-writer, not subject matter. I took the approach of creating a list that celebrated the technical skills of being an emcee in the same way that the greatest guitarist or greatest drummer list celebrates the technical skill of being an instrumentalist. 2Pac for all of his acclaim and artistic merit, wasn't as technically-skilled as many other emcees on this list. Basically, I looked at guys that I felt elevated the CRAFT of emceeing with their technique, storytelling and wit. So in that respect, in my mind, putting 2Pac in the Top Ten of this list would be akin to putting John Lennon in the Top Ten of a Greatest Guitarists list. Inappropriate."

I don't know how useful much of this is for the list in this thread. It can be said though that Pave and Trance are pretty much in agreement about who should be near the top of the list, and the editor agrees with them that Rakim, Nas, Jay-Z, and Notorious B.I.G. should be near the top.

Rakim is widely hailed by many as the finest lyricist in rap. Eminem and all kinds of others borrowed from this guy. He's called 'The God' for a reason.

Honestly, I feel Harrison is a better lyricist than Macca after going over all their work again. Harrison, in his small output of material, has had more consistent lyrical ability and praised output than Macca, and has been more consitent throughout his entire career. Also, his lyrical ability far surpasses Macca IMO, his wit and wry humor that we talk about is very evident in songs like 'Piggies' and 'Taxman', and his other lyrical prowess of complex and metaphoric ideals is on a whole other level than Macca, just take While My Guitar Gently Weeps and Within You/Without You. Also, his love songs rival Macca's in their emotional potency, if not surpass it, as shown by his timeless balad Something, arguably the Beatles best love song. His solo career also produced quite some good lyrical material. If anything, I do feel Harrisons linguistic ability is enough to overcome Macca, as their uniqueness is tied, if not in Harrisons favor, while influence for both is arguable, Something and While My Guitar being extremely influential lyrical performances, not to mention their massive acclaim.

Rakim needs a top 40 placement, possibly top 30 ahead of Eminem

responses in bold

That's a generalization.

I'll support Harrison > McCartney. Harrison beats Macca in every criteria but influence, from what I've read.

How?

Because saying "he's the greatest rap lyricist of all time" doesn't prove anything... In that case, i could make a case for Men Without Hats being #1 for the list, supported by the argument "they're the greatest lyricists of all time"...