Well said. Is my MFSB/Funk Brothers comparison valid?

You're definitely making a good case for him to stay in the top 40, aye

Yes..the comparison is quite valid. When Gamble & Huff were starting out...there was even some talk of them going to Motown (Holland Dozier Holland were leaving Motown to form their Invictus label), but G&H decided to go it alone and stay in Philly. The MFSB guys were definitely and admittedly influenced by The Funk Brothers...and their collaborations were quite similar. The biggest difference structurally was that Berry Gordy kept The Funks studio bound and more or less hid them from the public at large. G&H saw a commercial value in recording MFSB as artists along with their backup singers like The "Sweethearts Of Sigma" (named after their recording studio Sigma Sound), and they released several terrific instrumental tunes...including TSOP (The Soul Train Theme) reaching # 1 on the pop and R&B charts. Plus...G&H allowed his musicians to write and produce tracks on many of his artists and groups, like Bobby Eli who wrote and produced several hits for Blue Magic, Major Harris, The Main Ingredient and others. Ronnie Baker, Norman Harris and Earl Young also formed a production unit. Also...while The Funks sound was quite raw and rootsy (particularly in the beginning), MFSB had a slightly more sophisticated sound...partly due to more advanced production techniques and some brilliant engineering from legends like Tom Moulton (who virtually invented disco mixing). Eventually...some of the MFSB original guys left Philly Intl and formed The Salsoul Orchestra which also recorded as a unit and did a lot of sessions back in Philly.

good take on myung and thats what I say about new drummers guitarist vocalists etc all the time.

I don't remember if I told you about The Funk Brothers tour after the SITSOM film was released. Allan Slutsky e-mailed me to say thatt the tour was going well, but ticket sales for the LA show at The Wiltern were a little slow (they ended up selling out the house...but I digress), so I went out and bought about 40 tickets and gave a few away to some NARAS people and let my brother know I had em...so he brought along some friends, including Ready Freddie who he's done a crapload of stuff in the studio with and I sat a seat away from Freddie during the show and he later said that he was "savoring" every note that Babbitt played that night. Freddie did ask me about some Motown history during the show. Really nice guy. Also that night, my NARAS (Grammy) friend Linda who helped me with The Funks Lifetime Achievement Award brought along Johnny Rivers (a big Funk Brothers and Joan Osborne fan), and he was a really cool guy to talk to as well. Fun night...Thought you'd like the Ready Freddie stuff. He's really one of the very elite on the LA studio scene and in demand to tour with Steely Dan, Ray Parker Jr and lots more...

BTW...Freddies relationship with Patrice Rushin goes back decades and they have collaborated on several projects. Rushin is some sort of honored Professor Emeritus out here at UCLA. She is a highly respected musician throughout the music world.

So Gamble & Huff were the songwriting team in Philly? Was the Philly soul scene a similar sort of thing -- separate singers, musicians, songwriters, producers, etc?

I find all this stuff fascinating, so I really appreciate the discussion Stu

Ahh, I see you kind of answer this stuff further down in your post

... (ellipsis to separate posts I'm responding to)

Thanks Sam

...

I've heard about the Funks tour after SITSOM and I frickin wish I'd been into this kind of music back then, I would have gone to see em. How was the show? (Lol) I totally believe it that Freddie's a nice guy, seems to me all the session cats are totally cool guys...no ego like a lot of the rock star types. (I actually took bass lessons for a while with Jeremy Cohen who is based in Northern California and taught Matt Freeman of Rancid...he's done lots of sessions iirc...super sweet guy). As far as Freddie's playing goes...jeez does that Rushen song bassline stay with you, it might be the sweetest line I've ever heard. I'm super impressed. (Only song I've heard with Freddie though, at least, the only song which I know has him on bass) The funny thing about "Forget Me Nots" is that when you linked it to me I immediately recognized it, it must be a song I've heard hundreds of times in my life but never like, consciously registered or asked about. Quite a catchy tune, that one (and frankly I'm understating that a hell of a lot)

Hi ariel...

You'll like this

www.patricerushin.com

Click on videos and play the bass trailer video. It really takes on a comical aspect if you youtube Forget Me Nots basslines and listen to some of the posters TRYING to play that line and then watch Ready Freddie on the trailer.

Forget Me Nots has been used in several films, including a Will Smith remix in Men In Black.

Re Gamble & Huff and Philly International Records (PIR)...G&H were upstart producers in the late 60's. I think The Intruders were their first success at recording. They wrote, produced, and played on their early tracks...but two significant things occured which sent them to the next level. First was putting together a cadre of studio musicians who became known as MFSB (Mother Father Sister Brother). They, like The Funks at Motown, became the backbone of the "Philly Sound", and yes...MFSB were modeled after The Funk Brothers. The next significant thing that happened was the addition of producer Thom Bell to their organization. Bell was a fantastic producer who took groups like The Stylistics, The Spinners, and several others to hit after hit with terrific songs, beautiful arrangements, and great production using everything at his disposal including (like Motown) regular backup singers including the female singers like The Sweethearts Of Sigma featuring Carla Benson (whom I've met and is a talented and beautiful individual) and her brother also was a drummer in Philly, Keith Benson, who also worked with Allen Slutsky on the SITSOM film. Johnny Ingram (his sister Barbara was a Philly recording artist) also did a lot of background work. Those backup singers were also the singers used for the SITSOM film and The Funk Brothers subsequent tour as well as being the backup singers on the current PBS special on 60' Rock, Pop, and Soul...

BTW...another incredible Ronnie Baker bassline (of many), check out McFadden & Whiteheads "Ain't No Stoppin Us Now"...typical Ronnie Baker stuff.

Yeah...The Funk Brothers shows were great. We had a lot of fun. The first one at The Wiltern Theatre featured great singers like Joan Osborne, Maxi Priest and the legendary Darlene Love. I had just submitted the nomination for their Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and had some NARAS people with us. The next show was at the Hollywood House Of Blues and I was given the run of The Foundation Room for about 40 people, so we got to hang out with everyone after the show. We announced the awarding of the Lifetime Achievement Award that night so it was real exciting. Performing with The Funks that night were Joan Osborne, Darius Rucker, L.A. studio singing legend Jim Gilstrap, and a couple of others.

Unfortunatley, after those tours they headed to Europe for a tour where things began to fall apart with their management and Slutsky didn't work it out for them to come back to L.A. to receive the Lifetime Achievement Award in person. Long story but NARAS put together a segment on the Grammy show with Michael McDonald and Stevie Wonder performing with The Funks. Stevie backed out, Slutsky screwed up, and they cancelled the segment. Obviously I was quite disappointed in Stevie and let him know it. Still...they should have been there to receive the award in person but Slutsky decided to remain in Europe and not come back. The whole thing sort of fell apart after that.

Their first huge hit was "Expressway To Your Heart" by the Soul Survivors.

[youtube][/youtube]

Good call Bruce. X-Way to your heart was their first charted tune as a production team...but the "blue eyed soul" Soul Survivors were essentially one hit wonders...good tune though. The Intruders were their most successful early group who delivered a string of hits on the R&B and Pop crossover charts (Cowboys To Girls, United, Love Is Like A Baseball Game, I'll Always Love My Mama, etc). They also had some early hits with Archie Bell & The Drells which put them on their way as a successful production unit...but it was the emergence of Thom Bell which led them to the highly significant track record of hits that just kept on coming, particularly his work with The Stylistics which took the label to the next level.

No it wasn't.

Like I said, it was their first "huge" hit (top 5 on the pop charts), but they had other charted records before this, like "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" by Dee Dee Warwick, which was a year before "Expressway."


Their followup, "Explosion In Your Soul" was a top 40 pop chart hit, (#33) which was bigger than all but two or three of the Intruders records.

Hi Bruce...

Looks like you're in one of your pissy, argumentitive moods today LOL, so OK...I'll play along.

I had to check G&H's discography on their wiki page, and according to that, while ETYH was their first charted song, CTG was their second. IGMYLM (the Dee Dee Warwick version) is listed as their 5th or 6th). The Intruders were recording with G&H from the mid 60's, and that while I can find no album releases on The Soul Survivors, The Intruders had one of their earliest. Also keep in mind that few people (except for yourself) associate The Soul Survivors with G&H. The Intruders were a mainstay G&H group and their earliest with a string of hits who were working with the future MFSB musicians in the 60's as was Teddy Pendergrass. All that said...The Soul Survivors were but a footnote in G&H's resume and definitely classified as "one hit wonders"...sorta like Debbie Dean at Motown (1/2 a hit wonder)...basically insignificant. Back then there was even talk of G&H going to Motown due to the departure of HDH. When looking at G&H's charted hits, particularly in the early days...the R&B charts are much more significant since thats where most of their Philly artists first had success and then their sound became associated with crossover success. It was later when artists like Dusty Springfield and Elton John started to work with G&H and Thom Bell.

Fuck you, Stu. I am merely correcting some of the misinformation that you regularly post around here.



Are you telling us that you don't own a copy of any of the Billboard chart books, Stewy? You're actually going to use Wikipedia as your authorative source?

The Dee Dee Warwick record entered the Billboard pop chart on 11-26-66. That's almost a year befpre "Expressway To Your Heart," which entered the same chart on 9-2-67.



I guess you just don't know where to look, Stewy.

http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/ ... hing_goes/





All the soul collectors i deal with associate them with the Soul Survivors. I sell soul 45s to people all over the world, Stewy.



Stewy, no offense, but YOU are a fucking jackass. The Soul Survivors were NOT a one hit wonder. As I've already said, but you ignored, their followup single to "Expressway" reached #33 on the Billboard pop chart. It was a bigger record than all but two Intruders singles. Debbie Dean had one single that barely made the pop charts at #92. The Soul Survivors had a top 5 single, another top 40 single, and a third chart hit that was also much bigger than the Debbie Dean record. Their first album pictured above, you know, the one that you could not even find anny evidence of its existence, that album was on the Billboard album chart for 13 weeks in late 1967 and early 1968. To say that the Soul Survivors and Debbie Dean were equally succesful is ludicrous, Stewy.

Now Bruce...you wanna talk some Midwest/East Coast "blue eyed soul" (Detroit/Philly)? OK I'm game...

Back in Detroit in the mid-late 60's, I was a kid playing bass for some popular local R&B artists (blue eyed bass player). While I was doing that, some guys were all into the Detroit music scene, which Motown and it's imitators were a huge influence on. Earlier...Mitch Ryder was a Detroit based blue eyed type soul artist. Another group... Another local group, The Flaming Ember (Westbound # 9) was quite similar to the career of The Soul Survivors over in Philly. A hit or two and out. Another Detroit group...The Sunliners were popular in Detroit and did some touring. I used to see them ocassionally around gigs in the mid-late 60s". They went on to become a popular Motown group...Rare Earth. Their original keyboard and guitar players from when they were originally called The Wormglows were the Terrana twins...Russ and Ralph. They are friends of mine to this day. Russ left the band to become Motowns most prolific mixing engineer in history. When I was working on The Funk Brothers Lifetime Achievement Award I mentioned Russ to a NARAS person and they researched him and he ended up getting about 30 certificates for hit songs he mixed while at Motown. He and my brother did a shitload of work together out here in Los Angeles. Russ' twin Ralph was a producer at Motown before they left Detroit. He then opened up the Terra Shirma studios in Detroit where many nationally hit records were recorded. Ralph now lives in Monterey, Ca and is the moderator for the Soulful Detroit website. Pete Rivera, Fred Saxon, and the rest of the guys signed with Motown as artists, and the rest is history.
My friend Bobby Eli who was a founding member of MFSB as lead guitarist and wrote and produced several hits for Gamble & Huff including Sideshow for Blue Magic, Love Won't Let Me Wait by Major Harris, and several other hits actually hooked up with The Flaming Ember recently and they were working on some sort of project. Ralphs website hooked up a lot of Detroit and Philly music people and they even recorded a CD...Tale Of Two Soulful Cities which Bobby, some other Philly folks, and some of the Detroit guys including a few of the surviving Funk Brothers put this CD together.

Speaking of "blue eyed soul"...when I first moved to California in the 80's, I was temporarily staying on a monthly basis at the Holiday Inn in Burbank. I was outside the laundry room one day and start talking to a guy who was also staying there. I introduced myself and he introduced himself..."I'm Bobby Caldwell. I'm a singer working on a project right now". How cool...meeting with perhaps the "greatest" blue eyed soul singer ever ...

I'll be a "jackass" so long as you realize what you are...an individual so out of touch that you don't realize when you're being jacked (Debbie Dean). The truth is that The Soul Survivors (who may have been a good band) were largely insignificant to the Gamble & Huff operation. They were one hit wonders and if you asked 100 people on the street if they know about ANY Soul Survivors song other than ETYH and sang the first 16 bars to any of them you would get NOT 1 affirmative response and that would include myself. If not Debbie Dean...how bout Chris Clark???...LMAO

Stewy, I have no interest in these musicians as people. I'm just interested in the music, the records, and in getting the facts straight.

Here's one of the greatest white soul records:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ROu32_1Pw[/youtube]