May not convince you Ssoyd (lol) but I know you were around in the day and you HAVE to remember that during the early through the mid 70's...Rocco was the latest shit going around in R&B and Funk, while Jaco had not yet become a blip on the radar screen. Despite many historians citing Roccos influence on Jaco back then, it's virtually inconcievable that Jaco (due to the style he was playing back then) was not influenced by Rocco, any more than one could say that Elvis wasn't influenced by Carl Perkins, or Miles wasn't influenced by Clark Terry (the hottest horn in New York when Miles arrived).

I'm sure Jaco listened to TOP and I'm sure Prestia had some influence but I think others had far more. Have the "historians" citing Prestia's influence ever offered any quotes from Jaco or are they assuming it? As you can hear from the King Curtis recording Jemmott's style was similar to Prestia's and Jemmott predates Rocco.

Quite frankly TOP was mostly a West Coast phenomena. Here on the East Coast they weren't very prominent until much later. I remember the Song "What is Hip" but Rocco's bass playing wasn't really noticed that much at first. Since Jaco was an East Coast guy I don't know how much he really listened to them.

You can check out the trailer of Tony Newtons new film.

http://www.GroovemonsterMovie.com

Okay

Cogbill...

Playing doesn't really impress me too much. Good discography though. Don't see any strong reason to raise him on the list right now. Still, a noteworthy 'link' in the history of rock bass, so I'm glad he was brought up

Hood...

Much more impressed. Musicians Hall of Fame. Very successful and prominent recordings.

Still, despite the neat legacy and history and relative prominence in classic rock history, his playing also doesn't really impress me. Ehh.

To be fair the Traffic playing (his playing in Traffic) is much more vibrant and actually fairly awesome...MAN that groove

He'll get a spot on the list I suspect.

Tony Newton...

Now THIS dude is sick. Very creative playing, even if it's basically knockoff Jamerson it's very good knockoff Jamerson (which is not easy).

I'll look into him more later. He'll almost certainly get a spot. Cheers

Oh and as far as working on the top 20 goes...I've been convinced to drop Dunn and frankly it's the right thing to do, thanks for feedback on that issue. Will potentially put him in a 30s placeholder spot for now. This leaves Hamm and LaRue basically rounding out the top 20...hmm

And my lord does that David Hood have the divine GROOVE when he's at his best, listening to 'shoot out at the fantasy factory' (song) hell of a song too...cheers

Ariel, don't you think guys like Sheehan and La Rue are still too high?
Sheehan is a technical monster for sure but other than that does he really score so good on the other criteria?

A small example of some classic Swampers rhythm tracks from Muscle Shoals (Ssoyd will likely be familiar with) featuring David Hood on Bass Guitar...

Mustang Sally (Wilson Pickett)
Kodachrome (Paul Simon)
Tell Mama (Etta James)
Never Loved A Man (Aretha Franklin)
Old Time Rock & Roll (Bob Seeger)
When A Man Loves A Woman (Percy Sledge)

For better or worse he's also had a lot of influence. Beyond that not so good IMO.

Good question.

Sheehan will probably stay where he is, he has nuts creativity and significant innovation, plus significant influence and top 3 ever skill. Hamm has a somewhat weaker case for top 20, and La Rue I have zero idea why he's so high, it's absurd. Hamm will probably end up somewhere in the 20s. La Rue, no idea but 30s at best I would guess, and probably lower than that.

BTW...Stu I can't help but feel our man Babbitt is slightly high, despite my love for him. I politely invite you to state your case on why he should stay where he is. To be clear, he could never fall lower than the 30s, at worst. To be clear: aside from being James's co-pilot in Motown bass, and an excellent musician in terms of how good his playing is, how else is he noteworthy? I remember reading that like 95% of Motown hits had James on bass; that only leaves 5% for Bob. IIRC he also played on great and significant 70s songs too, right? And important songs outside of Motown too in his career?

I'll get to Tony Newton later. Very impressive dude in his own right, I foresee him getting a good spot on this list probably. Cheers!

Just did a ton of research/reading online about Benny Benjamin and wrote a mondo post on the greatest drummers thread Stu...mind taking a look and making sure I got my facts right? Cheers

How are you judging creativity? From where I stand Sheehan's musical creativity from a harmonic stand point is very weak because he plays nothing very original and he repeats himself all the time concentrating on riff after riff.

As I've stated before, I'm somewhat hesitant to discuss Babbitts placement on this list due to the fact that he is a friend and I believe that fact may impact my objectivity. I will say this much in response to your assumptions. It's true that Jamerson played the vast majority of Motown sessions over the years, although a lot of it was pre-67, around the time Motown placed Babbitt on the session roster. Also remember that Jamerson was at that studio practically all the time cutting tracks with The Funk Brothers, yet it's likely that the majority of those tracks never saw the light of day, although there are indeed some real bass gems that were cut for songs which never reached chart status or were kept in the can. Babbitt was called in for many significant sessions from Stevie Wonder to Marvin Gaye, as well as being Norman Whitfields bassist of choice as Motown moved into the 70's. Papa Was A Rolling Stone was Babbitt playing that erie opening bassline. In addition to all that, Babbitt moved on to Philly International after Motown and played on lots of hits there when some of the MFSB guys (including Ronnie Baker) left Philly Intl to form The Salsoul Orchestra...from The Spinners (Rubberband Man), to Elton John, to Alice Cooper, Denise Williams, and on and on. Check out his discography and album credits...a who's who of artists from several genres with many memorable and killer basslines.

www.bobbabbitt.com

From there on to Nashville where he toured extensively with rockabilly/country legend Brenda Lee.

I don't know if you've seen Babbitts book...Bob Babbitts Awareness Guide...but if so...check out the photos on the last several pages. You'll see how revered he is by fellow bassists and legends like Victor Wooten, Joe Osborn,Billy Sheehan, Steve Bailey, Jeff Berlin, Pino Palladino, Bootsy, Randy Jackson, Phil Chen, Verdine White, Adam Nitti, Chuck Rainey, Gary Tallent, Dave Pomoroy, David Hungate, Will Lee, Rocco Prestia, David Hood, Jamerson Jr, Paul McCartney and many more...all of whom proudly posed for photographs with Babbitt. I was fortunate to sit one seat away from Freddie Washington a few years back during The Funk Brothers tour here in Los Angeles. I saw Freddie intently study Babbitt for two hours. After the show, Freddie told my brother that he "savored" EVERY note Babbitt played. So you tell me???

Ariel...Your Benny Benjamin research is pretty spot on. I would say that it wasn't Benny or Jamerson who were responsible for the uniqueness of The Motown Sound...but the combination of those two who laid the foundation. Obviously, the later addition of Earl VanDyke and his raw power on keyboards took the ensemble to another level, along with every other element including the guitar tandem, percussion, etc. Yes, Benny shaped the Motown drum pattern, but Pistol added his own elements and was quite a character himself, and Uriel Jones carried as solid a pocket as has ever been seen in pop music. I don't really see where Motown changed the basic concept after Benny died. The tambourine was always somewhat hot on Motown tracks going back to the early days, and Pistol and Uriel used fills and pickups which while not exactly Benny Benjamin, were definitely Benny influenced. It all came back to Benny and Jamerson though, and I wonder how different Motown would have turned out without those two...and yes..there are dozens of bizarre Benny Benjamin stories out there. Bennys explosive style and powerful licks have become legend through the years.

Hey Chief...Where you at??? They're killing me on some of these other threads. Just fucking shoot me in the head...I'm dead LOL.

I assume you're working hard on the list ...you'd better be. I'm looking for clarity and sanity ...Hopefully I'll find it here

Thanks for checking out my Benny post and responding Stu. Cheers

Sorry, been very busy recently, but bleh, my bad regardless

Aw man leaving the instrumentalist subforums on DDD is like venturing out in the wilds, its scary and youre surrounded by possibly unfriendly species who'd rather eat you than listen to what you have to say (!) hehe but you're my friend very very respected on this website on the whole at least

I'm always working on the list! When I'm not posting I'm still thinking often about placements and doing research fairly often. Speaking of which..