About rappers/hip hop:

The current list:



My question is: Does Jay-Z can be above Run-DMC and Public Enemy?

I think he probably does because he'd got such a huge advantage in one crucial aspect of the criteria - Commercial Impact. Now as everybody here knows, I constantly preach about era/style context adjustments which would help Run-D.M.C. greatly in that area and to a lesser extent help PE as well. But even with that taken into account will that be enough? They beat him outright in influence, while musical impact will be really close, but Jay-Z's Commercial and Cultural Impact are probably too much for them to overtake. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out though.

You know, this is fascinating. When I first came on this site back in 2003, I would have LAUGHED at the idea of Madonna and Jay-Z as top 20 rock artists of all time.
But now I think we're all looking at the big picture and putting our "prejudices" aside.

This thread has become the most productive and informative on the whole site by far.

Awesome.

I'm not sure about Tupac, but I think Eminem and Jay-Z are neck and neck in the criteria, with Eminem having the edge due to cultural impact (despite not founding a clothing line). The guy became notorious on a huge scale. The one guy since Elvis Presley to become legitimately notorious, for his music, while still having massive appeal. Jay-Z was never that. I just don't see Jay-Z's accomplishments as enough cultural impact to make up for that. Running a record label, founding a clothing line; businessmen do that. His cultural impact doesn't really come from his music. Eminem's does. Eminem's lyrics have sparked genuine controversy. I can't think of one seriously controversial Jay-Z lyric.

^the 4 year constant controversy machine that Eminem was at his peak is unparalleled in my lifetime. and despite Jay Z's string of number 1 albums, Eminem's albums have been more successful overall. Jay Z's albums have a habit of hitting number 1 for a week and falling. Eminem's albums are among the highest selling of his era, almost always having a 5-6 week run at number 1. in fact, none of Jay Z's albums have sold even half as much as either the Marshall Mathers LP or Eminem Show. Jay has been consistently popular since his breakthrough, but his peak popularity really only compares to Eminem's recent popularity, and doesn't even come close to Eminem's peak popularity from 2000-2002. both have charted a lot of singles, but not consistently high. and both have a ton of successful guest spots.

i would give Jay Z influence and musical impact (although i think they both do EXTREMELY well in musical impact. along with Kanye, they are the top 3 on my artists of the 00s list. i have a ton of respect for both).

overall, what hurts Jay Z is that his albums never see continued sales after the first week. he's far less commercially successful than the string of #1s would indicate imo.

i see Eminem, Jay Z and 2Pac all being top 40. with Jay Z being the highest right now around 30, with Eminem right next to him and 2Pac a bit closer to 40. i have Eminem number 1 on my 00s list because i think he dominates his era in terms of combined cultural, musical and commercial impact.

i have to say though, i'm so glad this is the conversation that is taking place. i've been wanting this for 4 years.

Eminem won an effin' Oscar. A rap song winning an oscar? Yes, Em did it. I definitely think he is bigger than Jay-Z and waaaaaaaaaaay more popular. Just to say something: Jay-Z has 15,000,000 FB fans. Eminem is THE most popular artist on Facebook with over 55,000,000 "likes" to his page.

After all, Eminem is white.

There's tens of millions of white teenage girls who don't identify with a black man, even in 2012.

even Eminem would agree with you that him being white is a major reason why he's as popular as he is.

the thing is, though, i don't think it matters why he's more popular. he just is. we can't grade on a curve to try to pretend that white people don't make up over 2/3 of the US (the biggest market being considered) and even a bigger percentage of the UK.

You're obsessed with this. I think you're quite racist yourself for considering any advantage by a white man as unfair or something liike that. For your information, the second most popular artist is a black woman (Rihanna) who's not even form the USA and has virtually the same "likes" as Eminem. Of the 10 most popular artists 5 are black and 1 is colombian. One of them is Michael Jackson and another is Bob Marley. Do people not identify with them? So, yeah, that's not an issue.

i also think the midwest is very different than either coast, and that while rap was certainly already popular here, Eminem was the first midwest rapper to really dominate and make rap the most popular subgenre in the midwest (then Kanye even more). he tapped in to a new demographic imo. not just white people, because white people on the coasts already listened to rap. but specifically, white teens in the midwest, who up to that point had mainly listened to hard rock/alt rock. it wasn't just Eminem obviously. rap-rock had a big impact too (Kid Rock, Limp Bizkit, etc). but Eminem was the main driving force.

to Jay's credit, i think he was the face of post-gangsta rap. there were a lot of forces at play in shifting from gangsta rap to the pop-rap that dominates today's culture (the pop hooks, the style, the slick production). obviously 2Pac and B.I.G.'s death were a wake-up call to get away from a violent rap culture. and the shift was almost immediate. but someone had to drive the movement. and while Puff Daddy's stable had the first success, it was ultimately Jay Z who had the staying power. and i think the mainstream rap artists today like Kanye, Drake, etc owe a ton to Jay Z's style more-so than any other rap artist.

I never said it matters. I was just explaining why he's so much more popular than the other schmuck.

A - I never said it was unfair.

B - You say yourself that a white man has "an advantage," so why would it be racist to point that out?

Their fans are not predominantly teenagers like Eminem.

other things to remember about Eminem's peak:

1. his performance with Elton John at the Grammys was one of the 3 most talked about live moments that i can think of from my lifetime (the other two being Madonna/Britney and Janet's Super Bowl). and i would argue that the other two were only big for shock value, while Eminem/Elton's moment had significant cultural importance, especially given the amount of attention was focused on Eminem's homophobic lyrics.

2. he was such a pop culture icon that even his subject matter (Kim and his mother) became D-list celebrities simply by being mentioned by him.

3. 8 Mile grossed over 250 million worldwide, won an oscar for best original song, and had the best dvd release of any R-rated movie ever at the time of its release.