100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)

Brian · **Joined:** Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:52 pm **Posts:** 4300

Eric Wood wrote:

Bruce wrote:

The whole thing sounds like a bunch of double talk to me, and Chuck Berry does not have much cultural anything. People were not trying to look like him or dress like him or anything outside of what he is already credited for as part of his musical legacy. He was a 30+ year old guy playing music for teenagers. The kids loved the records, but he was no teen idol or anything like that.

I suggest if you are not familar enough with Chuck Berry's hits to know how big they were without looking them up, that you should leave the rankings here to those of us who have done that research decades ago.

I would love to. But a rather poor version of the list hasn't been updated in almost 7 years with you guys doing it your way. If you just want to say "No. Wrong." and then spend another seven years fixing it, have fun with that, but I'll keep trying to work it out for myself.

For some reason I thought Chuck had a big hit in '56, and maybe a couple more minor ones, but it was just "Maybellene" #5 8/55 and then "Beethoven" #29 6/56.

#7. MJ, #8. Stevie, #9. Chuck might make more sense than the reverse.

The problem I have with the bolded is that you're using different criteria from what we're using. If you use different criteria, you're not really talking about the same list.

Eric Wood · **Joined:** Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:22 pm **Posts:** 122

Bruce, I saw you post about that book before and it sounds like a great resource. Hopefully the book also includes some information from the 1947-54 period.

In general this is not out of line with what I'm talking about. I know that rock could not have broken into the mainstream in '55-'57 if not for a lot of groundwork laid as early as '45, including rock artists selling a lot of records, and most of those artists from '45-'55 get ignored historically. The Clovers were named a top 10 moneymaker by Billboard in 1953, which I've always thought gave some sense of scale to the various claims of records selling a million copies before they could cross onto the pop charts.

Sampson just talks about "accounting for the context of the times" but I'd rather give artists credit for "commercial influence." I'm also including evolutionary change in that area, but obviously more credit goes for revolutionary changes like the breakthrough of rock itself.

In any case, whatever credit "Maybellene" deserves for crossing into the top 5 of Billboard's pop charts in Aug. 1955 (presumably by getting play on white pop stations searching for follow-ups to "Rock Around the Clock"), obviously the immense influence credited under Musical Legacy is the meat of the argument for Berry's lofty placement.

ClashWho · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:30 pm

I'd still love to hear what you think Pink Floyd has on The Who other than "Commercial Legacy".

Eric Wood · **Joined:** Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:22 pm **Posts:** 122

Brian wrote:

Eric Wood wrote:

I would love to. But a rather poor version of the list hasn't been updated in almost 7 years with you guys doing it your way. If you just want to say "No. Wrong." and then spend another seven years fixing it, have fun with that, but I'll keep trying to work it out for myself.

The problem I have with the bolded is that you're using different criteria from what we're using. If you use different criteria, you're not really talking about the same list.

No, but it isn't ridiculously different criteria. Weight musical impact as a full quarter of the criteria, and the changes are fairly straightforward. More straightforward than any other criteria a list might use, which is usually none in particular.

Mixing in his own tendancies and the artists he pushed for, I could probably guess the top of Sampson's list using his criteria.

1. Elvis
2. Beatles
3. JB
4. Stevie
5. Stones
6. Beach Boys
7. Madonna
8. Dylan
9. Fats
10. MJ
11. Chuck
12. Ray
13. Zep
14. Aretha
15. Jay-Z
16. Little Richard
17. Run-DMC
18-23. Cooke, Gaye, Springsteen, Floyd, Supremes, Public Enemy

I probably whiffed on a couple artists, but I bet overall that's uncanny.

Bruno · **Joined:** Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:00 am **Posts:** 3702

Eric Wood wrote:

Bruce wrote:

Eric Wood wrote:

Since I posted a top 7-8 or whatever it was, the artist I most extensively changed my evaluation of was Michael Jackson. I had him fourth or fifth and that didn't really add up, with or without peer recognition as a full quarter of the criteria.

Well MJ beats everybody but the Beatles and Elvis in commercial legacy.

He beats most artists in cultural legacy. The only ones on your list who beat him for sure on that are Elvis, Beatles and Madonna. The ones that are debatable are Dylan and Run-DMC. So in order for him not to be in the top 5 you have to have him ranked pretty low in "musical legacy."

No, I don't have him that high in any regard. I think his sheer fame ended up exceeding his rightful status, which is still as a top 10 artist. I majorly re-evaluated him in Commercial and Cultural and came to the conclusion that his actual accomplishments and importance don't quite match up to the level of his sheer fame.

How?

Bruce · **Posted:** Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:02 pm

Eric Wood wrote:

Bruce, I saw you post about that book before and it sounds like a great resource. Hopefully the book also includes some information from the 1947-54 period.

If you read the info I posted, the book starts in 1954.

ClashWho · **Posted:** Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:06 am

Eric Wood wrote:

Brian wrote:

Eric Wood wrote:

I would love to. But a rather poor version of the list hasn't been updated in almost 7 years with you guys doing it your way. If you just want to say "No. Wrong." and then spend another seven years fixing it, have fun with that, but I'll keep trying to work it out for myself.

The problem I have with the bolded is that you're using different criteria from what we're using. If you use different criteria, you're not really talking about the same list.

No, but it isn't ridiculously different criteria. Weight musical impact as a full quarter of the criteria, and the changes are fairly straightforward. More straightforward than any other criteria a list might use, which is usually none in particular.

Mixing in his own tendancies and the artists he pushed for, I could probably guess the top of Sampson's list using his criteria.

1. Elvis
2. Beatles
3. JB
4. Stevie
5. Stones
6. Beach Boys
7. Madonna
8. Dylan
9. Fats
10. MJ
11. Chuck
12. Ray
13. Zep
14. Aretha
15. Jay-Z
16. Little Richard
17. Run-DMC
18-23. Cooke, Gaye, Springsteen, Floyd, Supremes, Public Enemy

I probably whiffed on a couple artists, but I bet overall that's uncanny.

Your lack of understanding of The Who's greatness is mystifying.

Bruno · **Joined:** Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:00 am **Posts:** 3702

The current criteria:

Quote:

Popularity: Charted singles and albums (with some consideration as to the era in which they took place to establish context - albums were not big in the 50's and early 60's for rock artists and most put no effort into them, black rock artists mostly did not pay full attention to them until the early 70's; certain styles received little radio airplay which negatively affect single success, such as metal and early rap; pre-1955 rock also was made for and appealed to a racially segregated market, so the R&B Charts are more accurate as to what was popular within the rock community at the time, but that has to be balanced to reflect that post-1955 rock on the pop charts was not only competing with other rock, but also all of pop music as a whole).

It also includes sales figures and headlining appearances and so forth but these are considered secondarily. However, as with chart success, era and style specific context is factored in. In terms of concerts not all artistic styles are created equal. A vocal harmony group, no matter how popular, won't fill stadiums because their music doesn't translate well to the venue. Rap is harder to duplicate live.

It is based on roughly a 80/20 split for US/UK. In cases where an artist undeniably has a very high level of worldwide popularity, that can be used as a tiebreaker.

My take on popularity:

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. Michael Jackson
4. Madonna
5. Elton John
6. Queen
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Led Zeppelin
9. ABBA
10. Stevie Wonder/James Brown

The first three are unanimous. And I think that can be alternated each year since the death of Jackson, his numbers are increasing.

ABBA, which still is not considered in the list, on this criterion they are part of the top 10 without a doubt, I think Brian can review it, as well as Celine Dion, which scores very well here.

About Stevie and Brown, perhaps the first slight advantage on the commercial side, which currently amount to 150 million in sales. But on the other hand, Brown beat Wonder on the billboard chart, if we consider that singles reached the top 100: 91 x 63 entries.

Honorable Mentions:

Ray Charles
Areth Franklin
Jay Z
Janet Jackson
Mariah Carey
Bruce Springsteen
Pink Floyd
Celine Dion
AC/DC
Bee Gees
U2
Whitney Houston
The Who
Beach Boys
Prince

Brian · **Joined:** Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:52 pm **Posts:** 4300

Remember that I'm using an 80% US 20% UK basis for popularity, so on that basis, neither Queen nor ABBA would be in the top 10. And The Beach Boys would at least make honorable mention for popularity.

Bruno · **Joined:** Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:00 am **Posts:** 3702

Brian wrote:

Remember that I'm using an 80% US 20% UK basis for popularity, so on that basis, neither Queen nor ABBA would be in the top 10. And The Beach Boys would at least make honorable mention for popularity.

You're right about Beach Boys, I'll include them in the honorable mentions, thanks.
About Queen and ABBA, I dont know ... Even on that basis, I think they can fight for a spot in the top 10.

Queen:
Estimates of their album sales generally range from 150 million to 300 million albums.
All-time total weeks on chart in UK: 402
6 number one in UK
Billboard Hot 100: 34 Songs

ABBA:
Estimates of their album sales generally range from 200 million to 300 million albums.
9 number one in UK
All-time total weeks on chart in UK: 260
Billboard Hot 100: 20 Songs

Compared with some artists that I put in honorable mentions, Queen and ABBA may lose the charts, but they take advantage of sales worldwide.
By the way, who do you think of replacing them?

Bruce · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:18 pm

Bruno wrote:

Compared with some artists that I put in honorable mentions, Queen and ABBA may lose the charts, but they take advantage of sales worldwide.

Apparently you're not getting what Brian is saying.

Right or wrong, he DOES NOT consider worldwide sales AT ALL when he determines the popularity portion of the criteria. It is based ONLY on the artist's popularity the USA and the UK and the split is 80/20.

ZepHead · **Joined:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:41 am **Posts:** 66

Bruno wrote:

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. Michael Jackson
4. Madonna
5. Elton John
6. Queen
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Led Zeppelin
9. ABBA
10. Stevie Wonder/James Brown

Queen was more popular than Zeppelin?

And this is probably the most objective top 10:

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. The Rolling Stones
6. Led Zeppelin
7. Chuck Berry
8. The Who
9. Jimi Hendrix
10. Stevie Wonder

Bruce · **Posted:** Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:28 pm

ZepHead wrote:

Bruno wrote:

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. Michael Jackson
4. Madonna
5. Elton John
6. Queen
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Led Zeppelin
9. ABBA
10. Stevie Wonder/James Brown

Queen was more popular than Zeppelin?

Worldwide it's close, they both sold about 300 million records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ic_artists

ZepHead · **Joined:** Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:41 am **Posts:** 66

Bruce wrote:

ZepHead wrote:

Bruno wrote:

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. Michael Jackson
4. Madonna
5. Elton John
6. Queen
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Led Zeppelin
9. ABBA
10. Stevie Wonder/James Brown

Queen was more popular than Zeppelin?

Worldwide it's close, they both sold about 300 million records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ic_artists

Zep still has a slight edge on Queen.

Bruno · **Joined:** Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:00 am **Posts:** 3702

Bruce wrote:

Bruno wrote:

Compared with some artists that I put in honorable mentions, Queen and ABBA may lose the charts, but they take advantage of sales worldwide.

Apparently you're not getting what Brian is saying.

Right or wrong, he DOES NOT consider worldwide sales AT ALL when he determines the popularity portion of the criteria. It is based ONLY on the artist's popularity the USA and the UK and the split is 80/20.

I get it, the criteria says:

Quote:

Charted singles and albums
It also includes sales figures
It is based on roughly a 80/20 split for US/UK. In cases where an artist undeniably has a very high level of worldwide popularity, that can be used as a tiebreaker.

But like the others, this part of the criteria is quite complicated, especially when comparing names with similar popularity.

100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)

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