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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Bruno wrote:
Also, it would be nice if Brian put "Bittersweet Symphony" at the top 300, at least. One of the greatest of the 90s, no doubt.


It'll be very close to the top 300.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:02 pm 
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Okay, we finished up and sent the changes to Lew. Here's how the list now will look:

NEW ADDITIONS ARE IN RED


1. Johnny B. Goode - Chuck Berry
2. Respect - Aretha Franklin
3. Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin
4. Louie Louie - The Kingsmen
5. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye
6. (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
7. Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley
8. Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley & His Comets
9. Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
10. Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
11. Hey Jude - Beatles
12. Good Vibrations - Beach Boys
13. Tutti-Frutti - Little Richard
14. What'd I Say - Ray Charles
15. Hotel California - Eagles
16. You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Righteous Brothers
17. My Girl - Temptations
18. Imagine - John Lennon
19. What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
20. Whole Lot of Shakin' Going On - Jerry Lee Lewis
21. Hound Dog - Elvis Presley
22. Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
23. Light My Fire - Doors
24. Superstition - Stevie Wonder
25. Layla - Derek and the Dominos
26. Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
27. She Loves You - Beatles
28. Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran / Blue Cheer / The Who
29. You Really Got Me - Kinks / Van Halen
30. Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
31. Let's Stay Together - Al Green
32. Long Tall Sally - Little Richard
33. Purple Haze - Jimi Hendrix Experience
34. A Day In The Life - Beatles
35. Smells Like Teen Spirit - Nirvana
36. That'll Be The Day - Buddy Holly & the Crickets
37. Every Breath You Take - Police
38. In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett
39. Maybellene - Chuck Berry
40. Bo Diddley - Bo Diddley
41. Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown
42. When Doves Cry - Prince
43. My Generation - The Who
44. Losing My Religion - R.E.M.
45. Sunshine Of Your Love - Cream
46. Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin
47. One - U2
48. A Change Is Gonna Come - Sam Cooke
49. All Along The Watchtower - Jimi Hendrix Experience
50. The Message - Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
51. Great Balls Of Fire - Jerry Lee Lewis
52. Hey Ya - OutKast
53. Mr. Tambourine Man - Byrds / Bob Dylan
54. Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival / Ike & Tina Turner
55. Shake, Rattle And Roll - Joe Turner / Bill Haley and His Comets
56. Walk This Way - Aerosmith / Run-D.M.C.
57. Let It Be - Beatles
58. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
59. American Pie - Don McLean
60. (Sittin' On) The Dock Of The Bay - Otis Redding
61. Blue Suede Shoes - Carl Perkins / Elvis Presley
62. Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley
63. Won't Get Fooled Again - The Who
64. Stayin' Alive - Bee Gees
65. Free Bird - Lynyrd Skynyrd
66. Nuthin' But a "G" Thang - Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg
67. Brown Sugar - Rolling Stones
68. Let's Get It On - Marvin Gaye
69. When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge
70. I Want To Hold Your Hand - Beatles
71. Good Rockin' Tonight - Wynonie Harris / Elvis Presley
72. Stand By Me - Ben E. King
73. I Will Survive - Gloria Gaynor
74. Super Freak - Rick James
75. A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum
76. Be My Baby - Ronettes
77. Go Your Own Way - Fleetwood Mac
78. Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - Temptations
79. House Of The Rising Sun - Animals
80. Yesterday - Beatles
81. Where Did Our Love Go - Supremes
82. Rapper's Delight - Sugarhill Gang
83. I Want You Back - Jackson 5
84. I Love Rock 'N' Roll - Joan Jett & The Blackhearts
85. Don't You Want Me? - Human League
86. Jeremy - Pearl Jam
87. Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley
88. Like a Virgin - Madonna
89. Beat It - Michael Jackson
90. Sweet Child O' Mine - Guns N' Roses
91. Under the Bridge - Red Hot Chili Peppers
92. Your Song - Elton John
93. You Shook Me All Night Long - AC/DC
94. Somebody To Love - Jefferson Airplane
95. Green Onions - Booker T. & the MGs
96. Soul Man - Sam & Dave
97. Twist And Shout - Beatles / Isley Brothers
98. Bye Bye Love - Everly Brothers
99. Earth Angel - Penguins
100. Crazy - Gnarls Barkley

101. Sexual Healing - Marvin Gaye
102. Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight and the Pips
103. Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
104. Good Golly Miss Molly - Little Richard
105. More Than a Feeling - Boston
106. Just My Imagination - Temptations
107. Sweet Dreams - Eurythmics
108. Call Me - Blondie
109. Celebration - Kool & The Gang
110. Another One Bites the Dust - Queen
111. The Sounds Of Silence - Simon & Garfunkel
112. Tainted Love - Soft Cell
113. Roxanne - Police
114. Dream On - Aerosmith
115. Whip It- Devo
116. Another Brick in the Wall Part II - Pink Floyd
117. Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent & the Blue Caps
118. Rock And Roll Music - Chuck Berry / Beatles
119. I Saw Her Standing There - Beatles
120. I Get Around - Beach Boys
121. Reach Out, I'll Be There - Four Tops
122. Peggy Sue - Buddy Holly
123. Gimme Some Lovin' - Spencer Davis Group
124. No Woman, No Cry - Bob Marley and the Wailers
125. London Calling - The Clash
126. Ain't Too Proud To Beg - Temptations
127. Lawdy Miss Clawdy - Lloyd Price
128. Roll Over Beethoven - Chuck Berry
129. Family Affair - Sly and the Family Stone
130. We Will Rock You / We Are the Champions - Queen
131. Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
132. Smoke on the Water - Deep Purple
133. Don't Stop Believin' - Journey
134. Dancing In The Street - Martha & the Vandellas
135. Mony Mony - Tommy James & the Shondells / Billy Idol
136. In The Still Of The Nite - Five Satins
137. Jumpin' Jack Flash - Rolling Stones
138. Born To Be Wild - Steppenwolf
139. Oh, Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison
140. I Only Have Eyes For You - Flamingos
141. Anarchy in the U.K. - Sex Pistols
142. Dancing Queen - ABBA
143. Get Up (I Feel Like Being a) Sex Machine - James Brown
144. Waterfalls - TLC
145. White Room - Cream
146. Sympathy For The Devil - Rolling Stones
147. Living for the City - Stevie Wonder
148. Lola - Kinks
149. Girls Just Want To Have Fun - Cyndi Lauper
150. For What It's Worth - Buffalo Springfield
151. Sultans of Swing - Dire Straits
152. Lean on Me - Bill Withers
153. Planet Rock - Afrika Bambaataa & The Soul Sonic Force
154. What's Love Got To Do With It? - Tina Turner
155. Born In the U.S.A. - Bruce Springsteen
156. With Or Without You - U2
157. (You Gotta) Fight For Your Right (To Party) - Beastie Boys
158. Loser - Beck
159. Gangsta's Paradise - Coolio
160. Nothing Compares 2 U - Sinéad O'Connor
161. For Your Precious Love - Jerry Butler & the Impressions
162. Blueberry Hill - Fats Domino
163. Brown Eyed Girl - Van Morrison
164. The Tracks Of My Tears - Miracles
165. California Dreamin' - Mamas & the Papas
166. Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
167. Kashmir - Led Zeppelin
168. Heart of Glass - Blondie
169. Theme from "Shaft" - Isaac Hayes
170. Me and Bobby McGee - Janis Joplin
171. Baba O'Riley - The Who
172. Fire and Rain - James Taylor
173. Paranoid - Black Sabbath
174. Heart of Gold - Neil Young
175. Wonderwall - Oasis
176. Doo Wop (That Thing) - Lauryn Hill
177. Money For Nothing - Dire Straits
178. Eight Miles High - Byrds
179. Strawberry Fields Forever - Beatles
180. Nights In White Satin - Moody Blues
181. Little Red Corvette - Prince
182. Please, Please, Please - James Brown & the Famous Flames
183. Lose Yourself - Eminem
184. Creep - Radiohead
185. California Love - 2Pac
186. Enter Sandman - Metallica
187. Walk on the Wild Side - Lou Reed
188. It's Too Late - Carole King
189. Into the Groove - Madonna
190. Blowin' In The Wind - Bob Dylan
191. Will You Love Me Tomorrow - Shirelles
192. Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles
193. Dazed And Confused - Led Zeppelin
194. Gimme Shelter - Rolling Stones
195. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For - U2
196. Heart Full Of Soul - Yardbirds
197. People Get Ready - Impressions
198. Suite: Judy Blue Eyes - Crosby, Stills & Nash
199. All Right Now - Free
200. Paradise By the Dashboard Light - Meat Loaf

201. Jump - Van Halen
202. Crazy in Love - Beyoncé feat. Jay-Z
203. Love Will Tear Us Apart - Joy Division
204. Tears In Heaven - Eric Clapton
205. Shout - Isley Brothers / Otis Day and the Knights
206. Get Ur Freak On - Missy Misdemeanor Elliot
207. I Walk The Line - Johnny Cash and the Tennessee Two
208. Bring It On Home To Me - Sam Cooke
209. You've Really Got A Hold On Me - Miracles
210. Good Times - Chic
211. (Don't Fear) The Reaper - Blue Oyster Cult
212. If You Don't Know Me by Now - Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes
213. All Night Long (All Night) - Lionel Richie
214. You Oughta Know - Alanis Morissette
215. Seven Nation Army - The White Stripes
216. Sh-Boom - Chords / Crew Cuts
217. Aqualung - Jethro Tull
218. Honky Tonk Women - Rolling Stones
219. Riders On the Storm - Doors
220. Black Magic Woman - Santana
221. Blue Monday - New Order
222. 1979 - Smashing Pumpkins
223. Clocks - Coldplay
224. The Great Pretender - Platters
225. Ain't It A Shame - Fats Domino
226. Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival
227. Revolution - Beatles
228. I Wanna Be Sedated - Ramones
229. Money - Pink Floyd
230. Relax - Frankie Goes To Hollywood
231. Paranoid Android - Radiohead
232. Paper Planes - M.I.A.
233. Money Honey - Drifters featuring Clyde McPhatter
234. A Hard Day's Night - Beatles
235. You Keep Me Hangin' On - Supremes
236. Piano Man - Billy Joel
237. Killing Me Softly with His Song - Roberta Flack / Fugees
238. Addicted To Love - Robert Palmer
239. Runaway - Del Shannon
240. Fuck You (Forget You) - Cee Lo Green
241. All Shook Up - Elvis Presley
242. Wild Thing - Troggs
243. She's Not There - Zombies
244. Thunder Road - Bruce Springsteen
245. Comfortably Numb - Pink Floyd
246. Livin On a Prayer - Bon Jovi
247. Fever - Little Willie John
248. The Loco-Motion - Little Eva
249. I'm A Believer - Monkees / Smash Mouth
250. Dance To The Music - Sly and the Family Stone
251. Roundabout - Yes
252. Empire State Of Mind - Jay-Z featuring Alicia Keys
253. Low Rider - War
254. That's All Right - Elvis Presley with Scotty and Bill
255. Surfin' U.S.A. - Beach Boys
256. Hot Stuff - Donna Summer
257. It Takes Two - Rob Base & D.J. E-Z Rock
258. The Wanderer - Dion
259. Smooth - Santana feat. Rob Thomas
260. You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet - Bachman-Turner Overdrive
261. The Train Kept-A-Rollin - Johnny Burnette Trio
262. Pledging My Love - Johnny Ace
263. God Only Knows - Beach Boys
264. The Letter - Box Tops
265. Under The Boardwalk - Drifters
266. I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
267. Love Train - O'Jays
268. Don’t Stop ‘Til You Get Enough – Michael Jackson
269. Mystery Train - Elvis Presley with Scotty and Bill
270. Enjoy the Silence - Depeche Mode
271. Jump Around - House of Pain
272. Sixty Minute Man - Dominoes
273. Rocket 88 - Jackie Brenston
274. Gloria - Them / Shadows Of Knight
275. Don't Speak – No Doubt
276. I Can See For Miles - The Who
277. Rock And Roll - Led Zeppelin
278. Old Time Rock 'n' Roll - Bob Seger & the Silver Bullet Band
279. No Diggity – BLACKstreet
280. Blitzkrieg Bop - Ramones
281. Reeling in the Years - Steely Dan
282. Black Hole Sun – Soundgarden
283. Sabotage – Beastie Boys
284. How Will I Know? - Whitney Houston
285. Fight the Power - Public Enemy
286. Sweet Little Sixteen - Chuck Berry
287. Yakety Yak - Coasters
288. Glad All Over - Dave Clark Five
289. Runaround Sue - Dion
290. One Nation Under a Groove - Funkedelic
291. Crying - Roy Orbison
292. Y.M.C.A. - Village People
293. Dreamlover - Mariah Carey
294. My Name Is - Eminem
295. I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown
296. Changes - David Bowie
297. The Twist - Chubby Checker
298. Killing In the Name - Rage Against The Machine
299. Iris – Goo Goo Dolls
300. Jesus Walks - Kanye West

301 ¦ Folsom Prison Blues - Johnny Cash and the Tennessee Two
302 ¦ In the Air Tonight - Phil Collins
303 ¦ Ain’t No Sunshine – Bill Withers
304 ¦ Bittersweet Symphony - The Verve
305 ¦ Come As You Are – Nirvana

306 ¦ All Day And All Of The Night - Kinks
307 ¦ Wish You Were Here – Pink Floyd
308 ¦ Rolling In The Deep - Adele
309 ¦ Kiss - Prince
310 ¦ La Bamba - Ritchie Valens / Los Lobos
311 ¦ At Last - Etta James
312 ¦ Have You Ever Seen the Rain – Creedence Clearwater Revival
313 ¦ Song 2 – Blur
314 ¦ Hungry Like the Wolf - Duran Duran
315 ¦ Highway to Hell – AC/DC
316 ¦ The Times They Are A'Changin' - Bob Dylan
317 ¦ You Send Me - Sam Cooke
318 ¦ Single Ladies (Put a Ring On It) - Beyoncé
319 ¦ Careless Whisper - Wham! feat. George Michael
320 ¦ Heroes – David Bowie
321 ¦ Everyday People - Sly & the Family Stone
322 ¦ Alive – Pearl Jam
323 ¦ School Day (Ring! Ring! Goes The Bell) - Chuck Berry
324 ¦ Pour Some Sugar On Me - Def Leppard
325 ¦ November Rain - Guns N’ Roses
326 ¦ Help! - Beatles

327 ¦ Truckin' - Grateful Dead
328 ¦ Fallin' - Alicia Keys
329 ¦ Take On Me - A-Ha
330 ¦ Lucille - Little Richard
331 ¦ I Can't Stop Loving You - Ray Charles
332 ¦ September – Earth, Wind & Fire
333 ¦ It Was a Good Day – Ice Cube
334 ¦ Rock the Casbah - The Clash
335 ¦ Black or White – Michael Jackson
336 ¦ Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
337 ¦ All I Have To Do Is Dream - Everly Brothers
338 ¦ Last Nite - The Strokes
339 ¦ Do You Really Want To Hurt Me? - Culture Club
340 ¦ My Sweet Lord – George Harrison
341 ¦ Something - Beatles
342 ¦ War – Edwin Starr
343 ¦ There Goes My Baby - Drifters
344 ¦ Rapture - Blondie
345 ¦ (Everything I Do) I Do It for You – Bryan Adams
346 ¦ California Girls - Beach Boys
347 ¦ Message in a Bottle – The Police
348 ¦ Take Me Out - Franz Ferdinand
349 ¦ Fast Car - Tracy Chapman
350 ¦ Wake Up Little Susie - Everly Brothers
351 ¦ You Can't Hurry Love - Supremes
352 ¦ Black Dog – Led Zeppelin
353 ¦ U Can’t Touch This – MC Hammer
354 ¦ Flashdance...What a Feeling - Irene Cara
355 ¦ Vogue – Madonna
356 ¦ I Can't Help Myself - Four Tops
357 ¦ I've Got A Woman - Ray Charles
358 ¦ Umbrella - Rihanna feat. Jay-Z
359 ¦ 1999 - Prince
360 ¦ I Feel Love – Donna Summer
361 ¦ Hit The Road Jack - Ray Charles
362 ¦ Dreams – Fleetwood Mac
363 ¦ Rave On - Buddy Holly
364 ¦ Word Up! - Cameo
365 ¦ Regulate – Warren G
366 ¦ Penny Lane - Beatles
367 ¦ Rock with You – Michael Jackson
368 ¦ Yeah! - Usher feat. Lil' Jon and Ludacris
369 ¦ Come On Eileen - Dexys Midnight Runners
370 ¦ Money - Barrett Strong / Beatles
371 ¦ It's Your Thing - Isley Brothers
372 ¦ One Love - Bob Marley and the Wailers
373 ¦ Zombie - The Cranberries
374 ¦ Purple Rain - Prince
375 ¦ Baby Got Back – Sir Mix-a-Lot
376 ¦ White Rabbit - Jefferson Airplane
377 ¦ Who Do You Love - Bo Diddley
378 ¦ Rehab - Amy Winehouse
379 ¦ Start Me Up - Rolling Stones
380 ¦ You Are the Sunshine of My Life – Stevie Wonder
381 ¦ Fortunate Son - Creedence Clearwater Revival
382 ¦ Play That Funky Music – Wild Cherry
383 ¦ Rumble - Link Wray
384 ¦ We Got The Beat - The Go-Go's
385 ¦ Everlong – Foo Fighters
386 ¦ In My Life - Beatles

387 ¦ 25 or 6 to 4 - Chicago
388 ¦ In Da Club - 50 Cent
389 ¦ Jessie's Girl - Rick Springfield
390 ¦ Rocking Pneumonia and the Boogie Woogie Flu - Huey "Piano" Smith / Johnny Rivers
391 ¦ Paint It, Black - Rolling Stones
392 ¦ School’s Out – Alice Cooper
393 ¦ Juicy – Notorious B.I.G.
394 ¦ The Boys of Summer - Don Henley
395 ¦ Tired of Being Alone – Al Green
396 ¦ Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison
397 ¦ Kansas City - Wilbert Harrison
398 ¦ Feel Good Inc. - Gorillaz
399 ¦ Summer of '69 - Bryan Adams
400 ¦ Unchained Melody - Righteous Brothers / Al Hibbler

401 ¦ Basket Case – Green Day
402 ¦ Tangled Up in Blue – Bob Dylan
403 ¦ Lonely Teardrops - Jackie Wilson
404 ¦ Push It - Salt-N-Pepa
405 ¦ Nothing Else Matters – Metallica
406 ¦ Walk On By - Dionne Warwick / Isaac Hayes
407 ¦ Le Freak – Chic
408 ¦ Gold Digger - Kanye West
409 ¦ My Prerogative - Bobby Brown
410 ¦ Crying In The Chapel - Orioles / Elvis Presley
411 ¦ Up On The Roof - Drifters
412 ¦ Goodbye Yellow Brick Road – Elton John
413 ¦ Say My Name – Destiny’s Child
414 ¦ Back In Black - AC/DC
415 ¦ Heart-Shaped Box - Nirvana
416 ¦ Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson & the Miracles
417 ¦ I Put A Spell On You - Screamin' Jay Hawkins
418 ¦ SexyBack - Justin Timberlake
419 ¦ Nasty - Janet Jackson
420 ¦ Get Up, Stand Up – Bob Marley and the Wailers
421 ¦ (Love Is Like A) Heat Wave - Martha & the Vandellas / Linda Ronstadt
422 ¦ Everybody Hurts – R.E.M.
423 ¦ Sincerely - Moonglows
424 ¦ Time After Time - Cyndi Lauper
425 ¦ God Save the Queen – The Sex Pistols
426 ¦ Chain Of Fools - Aretha Franklin
427 ¦ Mercy Mercy Me – Marvin Gaye
428 ¦ 99 Problems - Jay-Z
429 ¦ Thriller - Michael Jackson
430 ¦ At The Hop - Danny & the Juniors
431 ¦ 96 Tears - ? & the Mysterians
432 ¦ Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door – Bob Dylan / Guns N' Roses
433 ¦ ...Baby One More Time – Britney Spears
434 ¦ I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) - Whitney Houston
435 ¦ Rock and Roll All Nite – KISS
436 ¦ Don't Worry Baby - Beach Boys
437 ¦ Honky Tonk - Bill Doggett
438 ¦ Just The Way You Are - Bruno Mars
439 ¦ It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) - R.E.M.
440 ¦ All the Small Things – Blink 182
441 ¦ You Can't Always Get What You Want - Rolling Stones
442 ¦ Bang a Gong (Get It On) – T. Rex
443 ¦ River Deep, Mountain High - Ike & Tina Tuner
444 ¦ Pump Up the Jam - Technotronic feat. Felly
445 ¦ Once in a Lifetime - Talking Heads
446 ¦ Turn, Turn, Turn - Byrds
447 ¦ Hypnotize – Notorious B.I.G.
448 ¦ I Gotta Feeling - Black Eyed Peas
449 ¦ Back To Life - Soul II Soul
450 ¦ Jim Dandy - LaVern Baker
451 ¦ Wooly Bully - Sam the Sham & the Pharaohs
452 ¦ Rocket Man – Elton John
453 ¦ Friday I’m in Love – The Cure
454 ¦ Love Shack - B-52's
455 ¦ We Are Family – Sister Sledge
456 ¦ Baby I Need Your Lovin' - Four Tops / Johnny Rivers
457 ¦ Sweet Caroline - Neil Diamond
458 ¦ Ms. Jackson - OutKast
459 ¦ The Breaks - Kurtis Blow
460 ¦ Dear Mama – 2Pac
461 ¦ (Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher And Higher - Jackie Wilson
462 ¦ Miss You – The Rolling Stones
463 ¦ Tequila - Champs
464 ¦ Free Fallin' - Tom Petty
465 ¦ Buddy Holly – Weezer
466 ¦ I Got You Babe - Sonny & Cher
467 ¦ You’re So Vain – Carly Simon
468 ¦ Idioteque - Radiohead
469 ¦ Genius Of Love - Tom Tom Club
470 ¦ Love Potion No. 9 - Clovers / Searchers
471 ¦ Try A Little Tenderness - Otis Redding
472 ¦ Brick House – The Commodores
473 ¦ Gin & Juice – Snoop Doggy Dogg
474 ¦ Welcome To the Jungle - Guns N' Roses
475 ¦ Maybe I’m Amazed – Paul McCartney
476 ¦ The Weight - The Band / Aretha Franklin
477 ¦ Willie And The Hand Jive - Johnny Otis Show
478 ¦ All My Friends - LCD Soundsystem
479 ¦ Sledgehammer - Peter Gabriel
480 ¦ Just the Way You Are – Billy Joel
481 ¦ Da Doo Ron Ron (When He Walked Me Home) - Crystals
482 ¦ Train in Vain (Stand By Me) – The Clash
483 ¦ Come Go With Me - Dell-Vikings
484 ¦ Me, Myself and I - De La Soul
485 ¦ I Believe I Can Fly – R. Kelly
486 ¦ Subterranean Homesick Blues - Bob Dylan
487 ¦ The Boys Are Back in Town – Thin Lizzy
488 ¦ Fell in Love with a Girl - The White Stripes
489 ¦ Like A Prayer - Madonna
490 ¦ Pinball Wizard - The Who
491 ¦ Suspicious Minds - Elvis Presley
492 ¦ I’ll Be There – The Jackson 5
493 ¦ Tumbling Dice – The Rolling Stones
494 ¦ Don't You (Forget About Me) - Simple Minds
495 ¦ Higher Ground – Stevie Wonder
496 ¦ I've Been Loving You Too Long - Otis Redding
497 ¦ Low - Flo Rida
498 ¦ I Want To Know What Love Is - Foreigner
499 ¦ Take It Easy - Eagles
500 ¦ I Never Loved A Man (The Way I Love You) - Aretha Franklin


Last edited by Bruce on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:01 pm 
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Posts: 10613
Location: New Jersey
Here's a list of every artist that has at least three songs on the list, including when the artist is the second or third artist listed for a song.

Beatles - 17
Elvis - 11
Rolling Stones - 11
Michael Jackson / Jackson Five - 8
Bob Dylan - 7
Chuck Berry - 6
Beach Boys - 6
The Who - 6
Led Zeppelin - 6
Prince - 5
CCR - 5
Ray Charles - 5
Marvin Gaye - 5
Temptations - 4
Pink Floyd - 4
Aretha Franklin - 4
James Brown - 4
Madonna - 4
Little Richard - 4
Drifters - 4
Sly & the Family Stone - 4
Stevie Wonder - 4
Jay-Z - 4
Kinks - 3
Buddy Holly - 3
Supremes - 3
Bob Marley - 3
Elton John - 3
Isley Brothers - 3
Byrds - 3
Miracles - 3
Bruce Springsteen - 3
Everly Brothers - 3
Sam Cooke - 3
Queen - 3
Four Tops - 3
Radiohead - 3
Blondie - 3
R.E.M. - 3
Roy Orbison - 3
The Clash - 3
The Police - 3
U2 - 3
Tina Turner - 3


Last edited by Bruce on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Couple of questions: How do you define "acclaim"?

Secondly, I don't see how, applying the criteria equally, which I assume is being done (one area isn't being valued more than another, is it?), how anything beats "Rock Around The Clock" for #1, especially something from the same time period, which makes a straight comparison more feasible.

The criteria: These songs were chosen and ranked based upon their initial and lasting popularity, influence, and acclaim. Also considered is the song's overall impact on the history of the rock genre.

RATC easily wins initial popularity, not simply the fact it went to #1 for two months and JB didn't crack the Top Five, but I assume you have to be taking into account era-adjusted context to some degree. When RATC hit the charts rock was still not a dominant commercial entity as it was just four years later and being the first rock song to top the charts in that period makes that a more significant achievement and thus an even a bigger gap than the seven spots on the charts would indicate. Lasting popularity certainly is close, but while JBG has probably caught up to and passed RATC as of late (last twenty years or so... I have oldies radio surveys from the late 80's that had RATC at #1 for their year end rankings for most popular requests), there's actual chart re-entries for RATC in 1968 (bubbling under) and another Top 40 appearance for it in 1974 that give it a lot of certifiable lasting popularity, whereas JBG hasn't ever re-charted. I'm sure we'll get lastfm stats and the like, but the number of multi-artist reissues and soundtracks that use both songs is pretty even, neither gets an advantage in those, so I think this would be a tie, or very small win either way, no big win for either one here.

Influence is usually the earlier record, unless it was a huge deviation in approach between the two, but there's really not in this case. RATC is the quintessential rock single, 2:10 of drums, super fast guitar solos, sax and a backbeat behind lyrics celebrating the music itself in the context of an all-night party of (sex, dancing, drinking?). If a textbook was written on how to construct a rock song, even today, the blueprint would still be remarkably close to that. JBG is also influential, the guitar intro, witty lyrics, guitar break - but it wasn't the first time that arrangement had been used, even by Berry, so you can't give that specific song the influence credit that Berry himself receives for that style, even if later generations of artists probably would name that first among Berry's songs. It's where the style originated, or where it got spread the furthest, but previous Berry songs did the same thing and were popular and remained well-known, and even the difference between it and RATC, which preceded it by four years, isn't much when it comes to the actual arrangement.

Acclaim I need more of an explanation on, but looking at it in the ways in which it MIGHT be judged, I'd say JBG would win either way. Critically, especially in later years, it is considered the more definitive song, although as pointed out, the style is the same basic approach, so that's probably due to more critics not knowing their elbow from their asshole than anything else, but I guess if it's their "word" on it, that would certainly count. Peer recognition at the time would be much closer. Since rock was, in 1954-55, a black enterprise, the fact that Haley was white might've taken some of the acclaim from fellow musicians away from it, though that's not necessarily the case, there are a lot of black contemporary rockers that had admiration for the group. Even recently Bob Dylan has performed RACT in concert, which is a somewhat interesting thing to see actually, but I'd definitely say JBG wins this fairly comfortably, but not a landslide by any means.

Last though is impact on rock music. This is a blowout for RATC and what easily wins it for them, along with the big win in initial popularity. How could any song be more impactful than this - The first rock song to top the charts. The first rock song used in a major film, which because of its theme on juvenile delinquency forever married the two together. Rock would forever after be known as music of teenage rebellion and RATC, as much as ANY single record, is responsible for that. Even the fact that Haley was white and hit the top of the charts with a rock song had enormous impact on how rock became integrated. When it was all black performed white America could look past it, but not when the biggest song in the country was a rock record by a white artist. It also broke rock overseas, with it becoming the first (and second) rock song to top the British Charts. By contrast, JBG's impact on rock at the time was non-existent. It was simply a Top Ten hit by a fairly consistent and well-respected artist. It broke no new ground stylistically, production-wise or culturally. Even its longterm impact on rock doesn't add up to much. It's highly regarded, even decades later, but that's already factored into lasting popularity. There's really NO impact for this song in particular, which I know sounds funny because it's such an iconic record, but it just doesn't have any. There's no social connection, or important firsts, nothing in the way that RATC has. You could even say that the two biggest and more important cultural looks back on that overall era, American Graffiti and Happy Days both used RATC as their opening song, and while Graffiti had JBG in the soundtrack, it was jammed in the middle, not singled out in any way. It remains the go-to song to define that era of rock breaking through, its own biggest cultural impact as a whole for the genre. This is a landslide and really I don't think ANY record could make up that gap alone, especially since it does so well in the other areas too.

The rest of the list might be hard to rank, because there are SO many songs that were huge hits and have lasting popularity, acclaim, impact and influence, so deciding between any two of them at random could be somewhat of a problem, but I don't think there's ANY other song but RATC that could ever be #1. Nothing else comes close to beating it in the criteria. There's something to be said for timing, and that song had the absolute perfect timing.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:00 pm 
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Well, most musical influence that "RATC" has either goes back to the original version of the song (Sonny Dae and the Knights) or to Haley's version of "Rock The Joint" which has the same musical atributes and the exact same guitar break.

As for acclaim there are a few things we look at. One is acclaimedmusic.net, which ranks songs based on where they rank on a bunch of lists from idividual critics and magazines, etc....

"JBG" is the #1 song from the 50s on the site, "RATC" is #7.

Overall JBG" is the #6 song of all time on the site, "RATC" is #59.

Then we look at some other lists, like.....

Rolling Stone Top 500, JBG is #7, RATC is #158
Both are in the Grammy hall of fame
Both are on the Rock and Roll HOF list, which is not ranked
The RIAA list has JBG #27 and RATC #12
"JBG" is on many classic rock radio stations all time lists, while few of them, if any have "RATC" on their lists, so JBG has a lot more second and third generation fans than "RATC"

On Lastfm I don't know what time period is covered on their tracks list, but they have JBG at over 54,000 plays on two different versions available there. "RATC" has less than 12,000 plays on three different versions available there.

Currently on youtube JBG has over 40 million views from a bunch of different videos. RATC has about 16 million views from a bunch of different videos.

I'd say that RATC wins initial popularity easily, but that JBG wins lasting popularity pretty easily now in 2013, wins acclaim pretty easily, and (I think) wins influence, especially since Haley did not do the original version of the song, and was essentially just updating his version of "Rock The Joint."

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr_w3WPzyXA[/youtube]

From TWO years before "RATC"(check out the guitar break)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44YjmMKQTDU[/youtube]

RATC makes up some ground in the "historical impact" category, where it wins pretty easily, but it's been almost 60 years now, and some of the luster has worn off. I think if Family Feud had a question to "Name a 1950s rock and roll song" that JBG would get many more mentions than RATC from everybody under the age of 65. Maybe a couple of Elvis songs would also do real well.

It's "JBG" that was sent out into space to represent rock and roll to any other life that might be out there on another planet, and it's "JBG" that was featured in the blockbuster movie "Back To The Future." I would say that up until the mid 80s or so "RATC" was the song that best represented early rock and roll, but I think that mantle has been passed to JBG over the past 2-3 decades.


Last edited by Bruce on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Let me repost this explanation of how I use the criteria here. The individual categories are not equal. I value lasting poularity more than initial popularity.

Here are the different parts of the criteria and their respective percentages in the formula.

1 - INITIAL POPULARITY 1-4 (16%)

Each song will be rated from 1-4 based on its initial popularity. Songs that were not very popular when current will get 1 point. Songs that were big mainstream hits but not HUGE top 3-5 hits wil get 2 points. Songs that were huge top 3-5 hits including normal #1 songs will get 3 points. Songs that were monster mega hits that were #1 for multiple weeks will get 4 points.

Something that would get 4 points in this category would be "Rock Around The Clock" or "Hey Jude."

2 - LASTING POPULARITY - 1-6 (24%)

Each song will be rated from 1-6 on its lasting popularity. Songs that are not really known by the general public at all will get 1 point. Songs that are known but have not really remained big will get 2 points. Songs that have remained as well known oldies and are still played regularly in rotation on radio stations will get 3 points. Songs that are known by most people and are played a lot on the radio and at other venues will get 4 points. Songs that have gotten much bigger over time, are known by everybody, will get 5 points. Songs that are among the most enduringly popular songs of all time, played everywhere and known by people of all ages and tastes get 6 points.

Something that would get 6 points in this category would be "Billie Jean."


(MUSICAL) INFLUENCE -1-5 (20%)

Songs that have little to no infleunce get 1 point. Songs with some influnce, but not a whole lot, get 2 points. Songs that were solidly influential at least in their own era for sveeral years get 3 points. Songs that were very influential over the course of many years get 4 points. Songs that was incredibly influential over the course of many years get 5 points.

Something that might get 5 points in this category would be "Paranoid" or "Rapper's Delight."


ACCLAIM - 1-5 (20%)

Songs that have little to no acclaim get 1 point. Songs that are somewhat acclaimed, but not among the top 200 most acclaimed songs of the decade get 2 points. Songs that are well accalimed, but not among the top 100 most acclaimed songs of the decade get 3 points. Songs that are highly acclaimed but are not among the top 50 most acclaimed songs of the decade get 4 points. Songs that are among the top 50 most acclaimed songs of the decade get 5 points.

Something that would get 5 points in this category would be "Like A Rolling Stone" or "Respect."


(HISTORICAL) IMPACT - 1-5 (20%)

This category covers intangibles like cultural impact, which very few songs have, and non musical influence, which I guess is sort of cultural impact too. It's kind of a wild card category to be able to reward or penalize a record for having (or not having) something extra aside from what is covered in the other 4 categories. Songs with nothing going for them in this category get 1 point. Songs with a little bit of something here get 2 points. Songs that are used in commercials and movies a lot and have transcended their own era get 3 points. Songs that have been used in commercials and movies a lot and have transcended their own era, AND/OR have special meaning beyond just being popular songs get 4 points. Songs that have been used in commercials and movies a lot and have transcended their own era, AND/OR have special meaning beyond just being popular songs, AND are among the most meaningful songs of all time in terms of cultural impact get 5 points.

Something that might get 5 points in this category would be "Blowin' In The Wind" or "Celebration."

Most of the 80 records that are being graded here will get between 12 and 18 points in this criteria, Ties will be broken by looking at the individual ratings for each category. A more well rounded record will rank higher than a record that score real high in one category, but real low in another. In other words a 16 that is 1-3-5-5-2 nwill rank below a 16 that is 3-4-3-3-3.

Here's one record that I have graded already.

15 (3-3-3-4-2) 96 Tears - ? & the Mysterians

So you get the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:15 pm 
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The next question is, how the hell is "The Twist" so freaking low????? I'm on record as detesting it, the artist and the whole conflux of circumstances that led to it, but again, go by the criteria and put it 250 spots higher. Initial popularity - #1. Lasting popularity - the only record to re-chart at #1 in the same version more than a year later. The idiotic rap-remake with Checker in the 80's went Top Ten. The song remains one of the most well-known and frequently played from that era (much to my chagrin, but still). Influence... well, being a strict re-make it doesn't get primary credit for coming up with the dance, but no record in history gets more secondary credit for starting such a phenomenon as this. Acclaim - yeah, it suffers here to a degree, it was never that well regarded by either critics (who generally disdain dancing) or fellow artists, who viewed it for what it was, but still one bad aspect won't kill it (I mean, what single area does "Don't Stop Believin" beat it in, including acclaim?). Impact? Umm, huge. It broke rock through to adult audiences (which then caused teens to rebel and go back to the drawing board, but the line of demarkation got knocked down, which no one thought would ever happen). It started the biggest dance craze in rock history, one that lasted more than two years, had the first lady doing the twist for goodness sake, and that record's success in turn launched a thousand other dances (to quote Chris Kenner), trying to come up with the next craze, from the Monkey to the Fly to the Jerk to the Uncle Willie. The impact of the record itself was immense, there are maybe a half dozen or so in history that could possibly match it in this area, and in fact at least 80% of Top Ten actually don't.

Fair is fair. Stop discriminating against poor Chubby Checker, Bruce, and give the man some respect for this one record. I mean, seriously, "Sultans Of Swing" is about 150 spots higher? "Into The Groove"? A club record that only appealed to dancers and didn't even get radio play enough to chart can't beat the most danced to record in rock history? How so? "The Train Kept A Rollin?" Really??? An uncharted record that even to this day has virtually no one who knows it. "Enjoy The Silence"? "Y.M.C.A." - another dance track over the bigger dance track? For shame, Bruce, for shame.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:20 pm 
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Here's how I scored the songs in the top 10:

Initial popularity
Lasting popularity
Influence
Acclaim
Historical Impact

23 (2-6-5-5-5) Johnny B. Goode - Chuck Berry
23 (4-6-3-5-5) Respect - Aretha Franklin
21 (3-6-3-5-4) Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin
22 (4-6-2-5-5) Louie Louie - The Kingsmen
23 (4-6-3-5-5) I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye
22 (4-6-3-5-4) (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
22 (4-6-4-5-4) Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley
23 (4-6-3-5-5) Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley & His Comets
23 (4-6-3-5-5) Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
22 (3-6-5-5-3) Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan

So "RATC" and "JBG"got the same score. But I may have been a little rough on JBG only giving it a 2 for initial popularity.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:33 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
The next question is, how the hell is "The Twist" so freaking low????? I'm on record as detesting it, the artist and the whole conflux of circumstances that led to it, but again, go by the criteria and put it 250 spots higher. Initial popularity - #1. Lasting popularity - the only record to re-chart at #1 in the same version more than a year later. The idiotic rap-remake with Checker in the 80's went Top Ten. The song remains one of the most well-known and frequently played from that era (much to my chagrin, but still). Influence... well, being a strict re-make it doesn't get primary credit for coming up with the dance, but no record in history gets more secondary credit for starting such a phenomenon as this. Acclaim - yeah, it suffers here to a degree, it was never that well regarded by either critics (who generally disdain dancing) or fellow artists, who viewed it for what it was, but still one bad aspect won't kill it (I mean, what single area does "Don't Stop Believin" beat it in, including acclaim?). Impact? Umm, huge. It broke rock through to adult audiences (which then caused teens to rebel and go back to the drawing board, but the line of demarkation got knocked down, which no one thought would ever happen). It started the biggest dance craze in rock history, one that lasted more than two years, had the first lady doing the twist for goodness sake, and that record's success in turn launched a thousand other dances (to quote Chris Kenner), trying to come up with the next craze, from the Monkey to the Fly to the Jerk to the Uncle Willie. The impact of the record itself was immense, there are maybe a half dozen or so in history that could possibly match it in this area, and in fact at least 80% of Top Ten actually don't.

Fair is fair. Stop discriminating against poor Chubby Checker, Bruce, and give the man some respect for this one record. I mean, seriously, "Sultans Of Swing" is about 150 spots higher? "Into The Groove"? A club record that only appealed to dancers and didn't even get radio play enough to chart can't beat the most danced to record in rock history? How so? "The Train Kept A Rollin?" Really??? An uncharted record that even to this day has virtually no one who knows it. "Enjoy The Silence"? "Y.M.C.A." - another dance track over the bigger dance track? For shame, Bruce, for shame.


"Into The Groove" was not on a 45, only a 12" single, that's why it did not chart.

"The Twist" would not even have been in the top 300 if not for Brett. Its rank on the 60s decade list would not have gotten it in.

Let me score "The Twist"

Initial popularity - 4/4 (highest score possible)

Lasting popularity - 5/6 (this category is more about its popularity over the last 5 decades. It coming back as a hit a year later is still part of initial popularity. It's gets 5/6 because of it's constant play at parties and weddings for decades, but not many people are playing it in their houses or cars. "The Twist" has about 11,000 plays on Lastfm, and it's not even Chubby's most played track there, "Let's Twist Again" beats it.

Influence - 1/5 (musical influence goes to the Ballard version)

Acclaim - 3/5 (#260 all time on acclaimed.net, #451 on the RS list. RIAA #32

Historical Impact - 5/5 (started a huge trend in the industry)

Overall score is an 18, which puts it at the top of the list of items that were added in the 301-500 addition.


Last edited by Bruce on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:50 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Well, most musical influence that "RATC" has either goes back to the original version of the song (Sonny Dae and the Nights) or to Haley's version of "Rock The Joint" which has the same musical atributes and the exact same guitar break.

As for acclaim there are a few things we look at. One is acclaimedmusic.net, which ranks songs based on where they rank on a bunch of lists from idividual critics and magazines, etc....

"JBG" is the #1 song from the 50s on the site, "RATC" is #7.

Overall JBG" is the #6 song of all time on the site, "RATC" is #59.

Then we look at some other lists, like.....

Rolling Stone Top 500, JBG is #7, RATC is #158
Both are in the Grammy hall of fame
Both are on the Rock and Roll HOF list, which is not ranked
The RIAA list has JBG #27 and RATC #12
"JBG" is on many classic rock radio stations all time lists, while few of them, if any have "RATC" on their lists, so JBG has a lot more second and third generation fans than "RATC"

On Lastfm I don't know what time period is covered on their tracks list, but they have JBG at over 54,000 plays on two different versions available there. "RATC" has less than 12,000 plays on three different versions available there.

Currently on youtube JBG has over 40 million views from a bunch of different videos. RATC has about 16 million views from a bunch of different videos.

I'd say that RATC wins initial popularity easily, but that JBG wins lasting popularity pretty easily now in 2013, wins acclaim pretty easily, and (I think) wins influence, especially since Haley did not do the original version of the song, and was essentially just updating his version of "Rock The Joint."

RATC makes up some ground in the "historical impact" category, where it wins pretty easily, but it's been almost 60 years now, and some of the luster has worn off. I think if Family Feud had a question to "Name a 1950s rock and roll song" that JBG would get many more mentions than RATC from everybody under the age of 65. Maybe a couple of Elvis songs would also do real well.

It's "JBG" that was sent out into space to represent rock and roll to any other life that might be out there on another planet, and it's "JBG" that was featured in the blockbuster movie "Back To The Future." I would say that up until the mid 80s or so "RATC" was the song that best represented early rock and roll, but I think that mantle has been passed to JBG over the past 2-3 decades.


Well, I think we've BOTH criticized acclaimedmusic.net for the same reasons over the years. They repeat so many of the same sources ad nauseum, that have the same editors, same publishers, same writers, that you're getting duplicated figures there up the ass. I did a post on that somewhere earlier and showed how the lists they culled were in fact representing a fairly small pool of viewpoints. Secondly, I would say acclaim for Berry himself is far far higher than for Haley for numerous reasons. The look of Haley, ironically the guilt factor of white critics praising white artists at a time when rock was still predominantly black (by the sixties they'd simply avoid this by calling black rock something else, but there's a lot of that out there). Even the stage presence of Berry, the iconic duckwalk, is still mimicked and that helps Berry's standing in a way, but in no way does that directly translate to JBG. I think JBG is getting rub-off from those factors and you of all people I'd expect to see that, even though I agree that JBG still wins acclaim, but it's not quite the blow out you make it seem.

But I think the lasting popularity thing is the flaw. You're viewing this strictly from a 2013 perspective it seems. Yes, it's enormously impressive that a song from 1958 is still so familiar and popular and well regarded by such a diverse group of people today, no question. It's definitely more well-known and more played today, agreed. But "lasting" popularity basically means from the moment it ceased to be a new release and left the charts. Say start it a year later, two years maybe, and go from there. Any single moment during the ensuing decades should not be worth inherently more than any other single time. In other words, RATC being used to open American Graffiti is of at least equal value to JBG being used in Back To The Future. If RATC had stronger lasting popularity from 1956-1985 and JBG has won 1986-2013 the time period is still in RATC's favor. That can, and probably eventually will change, but of NO debate should be the fact that when used as the theme for Happy Days RATC hit the Top 40 again. At no point in JBG's history did it ever have a period where it was suddenly among the 40 most popular songs in the country. Ever. Not even close. RATC also bubbled under in '68, so there was another time where there were barely a hundred songs that were more popular than it. So all the lastffm stats and youtube views combined can't beat that, unless you could prove of course (and I'd accept this) that all of the major internet song play outlets combined would place JBG in the Top 40 most played songs on the internet for at least a week. Don't hold your breath for that. So when each year is weighed evenly, and the peaks of each are compared to one another, RATC actually wins. I still agree that JBG has passed it over the past twenty years or so, but even so RATC is still instantly recognizable and has had a greater period of sustained widespread popularity, as evidenced there, than Johnny did.

As for influence, the Sonny Dae record used a far different instrumentation and vocal delivery, and while the guitar break is a lick for lick copy of Rock The Joint, we are still crediting influence the same way, I assume, primary and secondary, so while you COULD give primary influence to either of those, though you could be outargued too, the secondary influence for RATC is gigantic. Rock The Joint wasn't even a hit. Very few people even heard it, so while I'll gladly give it primary influence for the guitar solo, the huge secondary influence for that specific thing goes to RATC. THAT'S what spread that sound the farthest (and it's also the entire arrangement itself I was crediting, not just the guitar solo). As for JBG, it had no primary influence because Berry himself had HIT songs that predated it which laid down the exact same framework. It also has little secondary influence because what was done already had been spread - by him, by others (the smaller guitar-led combo had achieved the same thing already, The Crickets, Presley, et. all). So even downgrading RATC's influence somewhat by attributing more primary influence to the earlier incarnations of those things, the secondary influence alone is bigger than all of the influence of JBG.

So to recap, you agree that RATC wins initial popularity, and I think by a very comfortable margin, especially when you factor in the context era adjustment that has to be made. Lasting popularity is close to a draw, but if you want to squeak JBG ahead I won't bitch too much, unless you give it a huge win, because as shown RATC had MORE lasting popularity (higher peaks) for a longer time, so that could actually go to RATC still by a hair, but either way, it's really close. Influence is still RATC because of huge secondary influence, compared to little for JBG. Then you yourself said RATC gets a big win in cultural, and you're trying to lessen that over the years doesn't fly, otherwise you're combining that with lasting popularity, sort of a lasting impact, which is just wrong. Impact is always at the time, and your Family Fued thing is just pure speculation, and probably not even accurate at that (and I'd hate to use the reactions by the trailer trash and high school dropouts who appear on that to determine anything). I still can't see how any song would beat it, unless you bumped lasting popularity and acclaim to 90% of the criteria.


Last edited by Sampson on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:03 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Here's how I scored the songs in the top 10:

Initial popularity
Lasting popularity
Influence
Acclaim
Historical Impact

23 (2-6-5-5-5) Johnny B. Goode - Chuck Berry
23 (4-6-3-5-5) Respect - Aretha Franklin
21 (3-6-3-5-4) Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin
22 (4-6-2-5-5) Louie Louie - The Kingsmen
23 (4-6-3-5-5) I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye
22 (4-6-3-5-4) (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
22 (4-6-4-5-4) Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley
23 (4-6-3-5-5) Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley & His Comets
23 (4-6-3-5-5) Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
22 (3-6-5-5-3) Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan

So "RATC" and "JBG"got the same score. But I may have been a little rough on JBG only giving it a 2 for initial popularity.


Let me just start off by saying that I at one point had been asked to do this list, years ago, and thought it'd be easy, but the problem was the sheer number of equal songs by any reasonable criteria. You could literally have two songs two hundred spots away that were debatable and that's what got me to abandon it, so I'm not saying this is easy, Bruce.

BUT... I'll still have to criticize this in particular: You say that JBG gets the highest possible score for influence and I'm telling you it has none. Zero primary influence. It did NOTHING that previous Chuck Berry songs hadn't already done. "Roll Over Beethoven" is JBG's older brother. Then, since you gave Hank Ballard's version of "The Twist" all of the influence for the song (though you could've traced it back to Clyde McPhatter & The Drifter's "Whatcha Gonna Do", which is what Hank ripped off for the Twist to begin with, even stealing the term from the lyrics), rather than giving influence to Checker's (though it's interesting you don't combine them, since it seems you're talking song, not record), that only shows that you're either not crediting secondary influence at all (because, let's face it, Checker's version is the one that spread the influence), or downgrading it so much that it barely registers. If either of those is the case then JBG has to get a 1 for influence, thereby sending it down, even if you raise its inital popularity to a 3 (which I think would be justified). Either way though, you can't possibly defend it getting a five for influence. Feel free to explain its influence, but you know I'll shoot it it full of holes.

Then you were the one who said earlier that RATC wins Impact easily, yet you give them both 5's. There's no way JBG deserves anything more than a 1. It was nothing more than another decent sized hit in the same style by the same artist who had already had a number of similar ones and would go on to have a number of others just like it. There's no big impact on the history of rock caused by the record, other than its lasting popularity, and you said so yourself. If this was two songs much lower on the list it'd be easily forgiveable, but NOT when we're talking the song that tops the entire list!!!! Especially when RATC, even with your mis-crediting the aspects of the criteria so badly, ties it in the scorecard.

Nothing personal, Bruce, I know "Johnny B. Goode" is one of those handful of songs that SEEMS like a good choice for #1, but no well-rounded objective criteria
in the world would put it there. Actually, I think of all the major lists on the site that encompass ALL of rock history, artist, albums, influence, etc., this is the only one which there is no debating the winner, the rest all have at least decent arguments for the top two or three. Which kinda makes this a little boring maybe, but the next 499 spots will more than make up for that because most of those could legitimately be tossed in a hat and pulled out at random and the results would be somewhat defensible, meaning of course that NO ONE would ever be totally happy. :smile:


Last edited by Sampson on Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:07 am 
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Sampson wrote:
But I think the lasting popularity thing is the flaw. You're viewing this strictly from a 2013 perspective it seems. Yes, it's enormously impressive that a song from 1958 is still so familiar and popular and well regarded by such a diverse group of people today, no question. It's definitely more well-known and more played today, agreed. But "lasting" popularity basically means from the moment it ceased to be a new release and left the charts.


Well, "The Twist" was on albums that were on the charts continuously from Oct 1960 through mid-1963. Since this list is not just about singles, it's initial popularity on albums would also be counted.

Sampson wrote:
Say start it a year later, two years maybe, and go from there. Any single moment during the ensuing decades should not be worth inherently more than any other single time. In other words, RATC being used to open American Graffiti is of at least equal value to JBG being used in Back To The Future. If RATC had stronger lasting popularity from 1956-1985 and JBG has won 1986-2013 the time period is still in RATC's favor. That can, and probably eventually will change, but of NO debate should be the fact that when used as the theme for Happy Days RATC hit the Top 40 again. At no point in JBG's history did it ever have a period where it was suddenly among the 40 most popular songs in the country. Ever. Not even close. RATC also bubbled under in '68, so there was another time where there were barely a hundred songs that were more popular than it. So all the lastffm stats and youtube views combined can't beat that, unless you could prove of course (and I'd accept this) that all of the major internet song play outlets combined would place JBG in the Top 40 most played songs on the internet for at least a week. Don't hold your breath for that. So when each year is weighed evenly, and the peaks of each are compared to one another, RATC actually wins. I still agree that JBG has passed it over the past twenty years or so, but even so RATC is still instantly recognizable and has had a greater period of sustained widespread popularity, as evidenced there, than Johnny did.


If you check the scores I posted you'll see I gave them both the maximum number of points for lasting popularity, but it's clear which one has been more popular in the past 20-30 years, and like the NCAA Football rankings, Lasting popularity puts more emphasis on what's happened recently.


Sampson wrote:
As for influence, the Sonny Dae record used a far different instrumentation, and while the guitar break is a lick for lick copy of Rock The Joint, we are still crediting influence the same way, I assume, primary and secondary, so while you COULD give primary influence to either of those, though you could be outargued too, the secondary influence for RATC is gigantic. Rock The Joint wasn't even a hit. Very few people even heard it, so while I'll gladly give it primary influence for the guitar solo, the huge secondary influence for that specific thing goes to RATC. THAT'S what spread that sound the farthest (and it's also the entire arrangement itself I was crediting, not just the guitar solo) and nobody would even debate that. As for JBG, it had no primary influence because Berry himself had HIT songs that predated it which laid down the exact same framework. It also has little secondary influence because what was done already had been spread - by him, by others (the smaller guitar-led combo had achieved the same thing already, The Crickets, Presley, et. all). So even downgrading RATC's influence somewhat by attribute more primary influence to the earlier incarnations of those things, the secondary influence alone is bigger than all of the influence of JBG.


We see this a little differently. A ton more people picked up a guitar and learned to play JBG than people who learned to play RATC over the years. I don't remember the Beatles or stones ever doing RATC, but all those bands did JBG.

Sampson wrote:
So to recap, you agree that RATC wins initial popularity, and I think by a very comfortable margin, especially when you factor in the context era adjustment that has to be made. Lasting popularity is close to a drew, but if you want to squeak JBG ahead I won't bitch too much, unless you give it a huge win, because as shown RATC had MORE lasting popularity (higher peaks) for a longer time, so that could actually go to RATC still by a hair, but either way, it's really close. Influence is still RATC because of huge secondary influence, compared to little for JBG. Then you yourself said RATC gets a big win in cultural, and you're trying to lessen that over the years doesn't fly, otherwise you're combining that with lasting popularity, sort of a lasting impact, which is just wrong. Impact is always at the time, and your Family Fued thing is just pure speculation, and probably not even accurate at that (and I'd hate to use the reactions by the trailer trash and high school dropouts who appear on that to determine anything). I still can't see how any song would beat it, unless you bumped lasting popularity and acclaim to 90% of the criteria.


We have no "cultural" part of the criteria on this list. The two records score pretty even on the criteria, but since JBG is pulling away from RATC every day, I went with the future rather than the past. In reality anything in the top 10 could have been anywhere from #1 to #10.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:15 am 
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Sampson wrote:
BUT... I'll still have to criticize this in particular: You say that JBG gets the highest possible score for influence and I'm telling you it has none. Zero primary influence.[/quoye]

I beg to differ. There are tens of millions of people who only know that one Chuck Berry song, and thousands of guitar players now in the world who can play that song but cannot play any other Chuck Berry song, so while it may not have been very different from "Roll Over Beethoven" it is the one that has had the influence over the past 30+ years.

Sampson wrote:
Then YOu said earlier that RATC wins Impact easily, yet you give them both 5's. There's no way JBG deserves anything more than a 1. It was nothing more than another decent sized hit in the same style by the same artist who had already had a number of similar ones and would go on to have a number of iothers just like it.


You weren't around then, people who were tell me that JBG was instantly recognized as his best ever record when they first heard it. Plus, unlike you, I don;t base impact only on the initial response to the record. Things like being sent into outer soace and being used in movies and being now the most reprentative record for 1950s rock and roll is part of its historical impact.

Sampson wrote:
There's no big impact on the history of rock caused by the record, other than its lasting popularity, and you said so yourself. If this was two songs much lower on the list it'd be easily forgiveable, but NOT when we're talking the song that tops the entire list!!!! Especially when RATC, even with your mis-crediting the aspects of the criteria so badly, ties it in the scorecard.

Nothing personal, Bruce, I know "Johnny B. Goode" is one of those handful of songs that SEEMS like a good choice for #1, but no well-rounded objective criteria in the world would put it there.


Well, we seem to disagree a lot on how to apply the various parts of the criteria.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:38 am 
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Sorry, I said "cultural" when I meant your exact criteria - IMPACT ON ROCK HISTORY. Call it what you will, even you said it was a big win for RATC, so you can't give them equal scores on that, it only makes sense. Then add in the fact that JBG had no real impact on rock at the time, Berry himself said it wasn't even his most popular song for years. Over time it has become the definitive Berry anthem, no question, so if you want to bump it slightly, fine, but the record itself did NOTHING when it came out to impact rock history in any siginficant way, whereas RATC had more impact than any single record in history. You want to give JBG credit for being shot into space, sure I'll go along with that (but DON'T try and use Martian radio for popularity next) but then you say JBG was used in a hit movie, even though RATC was used in an equally big hit movie AND was the original theme song of a hit TV show. It's not close, Bruce, they can't get the same score in this and any record that has as much impact as RATC - -particularly at the time, when it changed everything - shouldn't have any song that even gets the same number.

Then there's the influence. JBG has none. If primary influence goes to the source, as it should and seems to in your assessments of other records, then what did JBG do in any way that was different than Roll Over Beethoven or School Day? I'm assuming the influence you're crediting it for has to do with either the style of writing (done earlier by Berry), the arrangement (done earlier by Berry) or the specific type of solos (done earlier by Berry). The fact that amateur guitarists can PLAY that solo but can't play Roll Over Beethoven doesn't equate to influence, but rather familiarity. The STYLE of the solo is what's influential, introducing a new way to incorporate a solo, or playing in an entirely different tuning, and that's not the case here. You're giving it the maximum number of points for influence when I just made the case for it getting the lowest, or at the most a 2, if we're gonna start counting up what some junkie guitarist in his bedroom is playing, which you SEEMED to do in your other example of what people are playing in their "houses or cars", then how can you even bring that up and expect to be taken seriously. I expect way more out of you than that. (And just how would you KNOW what I'm playing in my house or car? Are there secret transcriptions of this in everyone's vehicle and living room? How about earphones at the gym or the beach? - c'mon, you're making assumptions based on nothing at all and then using it to defend the part of this that can't be defended). So unless you're totally re-writing how something is influential it just doesn't work.

Like I said before, it's nothing personal, but JBG doesn't do great in the criteria other than one area, lasting popularity. It does "well" in some, but a #1 choice can't just do well, it has to do great across the board, especially with so many songs to choose from. I could make the same case for a bunch of other songs over it too. I might even like JBG the most personally out of all of them, but it's one of those iconic songs that has a lot familiarity but its measurable achievements otherwise are fairly slim compared to other legendary songs. Now it could be that this might not be the best way to come up with a list like this, and I think that's more what you're getting at, but then the criteria is being manipulated wrongly to defend the choices when it should just be scrapped altogether. Because in this case, the criteria you have winds up with RATC at number one, no matter how bad at math you are.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songs
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:52 am 
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Sampson wrote:
Sorry, I said "cultural" when I meant your exact criteria - IMPACT ON ROCK HISTORY. Call it what you will, even you said it was a big win for RATC, so you can't give them equal scores on that, it only makes sense. Then add in the fact that JBG had no real impact on rock at the time, Berry himself said it wasn't even his most popular song for years. Over time it has become the definitive Berry anthem, no question, so if you want to bump it slightly, fine, but the record itself did NOTHING when it came out to impact rock history in any siginficant way, whereas RATC had more impact than any single record in history. You want to give JBG credit for being shot into space, sure I'll go along with that (but DON'T try and use Martian radio for popularity next) but then you say JBG was used in a hit movie, even though RATC was used in an equally big hit movie AND was the original theme song of a hit TV show. It's not close, Bruce, they can't get the same score in this and any record that has as much impact as RATC - -particularly at the time, when it changed everything - shouldn't have any song that even gets the same number.

Then there's the influence. JBG has none. If primary influence goes to the source, as it should and seems to in your assessments of other records, then what did JBG do in any way that was different than Roll Over Beethoven or School Day? I'm assuming the influence you're crediting it for has to do with either the style of writing (done earlier by Berry), the arrangement (done earlier by Berry) or the specific type of solos (done earlier by Berry). The fact that amateur guitarists can PLAY that solo but can't play Roll Over Beethoven doesn't equate to influence, but rather familiarity. The STYLE of the solo is what's influential, introducing a new way to incorporate a solo, or playing in an entirely different tuning, and that's not the case here. You're giving it the maximum number of points for influence when I just made the case for it getting the lowest, or at the most a 2, if we're gonna start counting up what some junkie guitarist in his bedroom is playing, which you SEEMED to do in your other example of what people are playing in their "houses or cars", then how can you even bring that up and expect to be taken seriously. I expect way more out of you than that. (And just how would you KNOW what I'm playing in my house or car? Are there secret transcriptions of this in everyone's vehicle and living room? How about earphones at the gym or the beach? - c'mon, you're making assumptions based on nothing at all and then using it to defend the part of this that can't be defended). So unless you're totally re-writing how something is influential it just doesn't work.

Like I said before, it's nothing personal, but JBG doesn't do great in the criteria other than one area, lasting popularity. It does "well" in some, but a #1 choice can't just do well, it has to do great across the board, especially with so many songs to choose from. I could make the same case for a bunch of other songs over it too. I might even like JBG the most personally out of all of them, but it's one of those iconic songs that has a lot familiarity but its measurable achievements otherwise are fairly slim compared to other legendary songs. Now it could be that this might not be the best way to come up with a list like this, and I think that's more what you're getting at, but then the criteria is being manipulated wrongly to defend the choices when it should just be scrapped altogether. Because in this case, the criteria you have winds up with RATC at number one, no matter how bad at math you are.


I guarantee I'm better at math than you are and will put up money if you are willing to meet and have us each be tested.

By the way, "Back To The Future" was a WAY more popular movie than "American Graffiti." The box office was 383 million to 140 million.

Back to the Future was released on July 3, 1985 and became the most successful film of the year, grossing more than $383 million worldwide and receiving critical acclaim. It won the Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation and the Saturn Award for Best Science Fiction Film, as well as an Academy Award, and Golden Globe nominations among others. Ronald Reagan even quoted the film in his 1986 State of the Union Address. In 2007, the Library of Congress selected it for preservation in the National Film Registry, and in June 2008 the American Film Institute's special AFI's 10 Top 10 designated the film as the 10th-best film in the science fiction genre. The film marked the beginning of a franchise, with sequels Back to the Future Parts II and III released in 1989 and 1990, as well as an animated series, theme park ride and several video games.

American Graffiti was released to universal critical acclaim and financial success, and was nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture. Produced on a $775,000 budget, the film has turned out to be one of the most profitable movies of all time. Since its initial release, American Graffiti has garnered an estimated return of well over $200 million (box office was 140 million) in box office gross and home video sales, not including merchandising. In 1995, the United States Library of Congress deemed the film "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant" and selected it for preservation in the National Film Registry.


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