Switched them. Also, paul, feel free to suggest any significant lyricists missing so I will add them to my potential choices section.

1. Leonard Cohen
2. Melle Mel
3. Lou Reed
4. Michael Stipe
5. KRS-One
6. Kurt Cobain
7. Kool G Rap
8. Mick Jagger
9. Kendrick Lamar
10. LL Cool J
11. Kate Bush
12. Mark E. Smith (The Fall)
13. Maynard James Keenan
14. Laura Nyro
15. Liz Phair

Tricky group for sure plus the most rap-heavy one.

Gotta catch up with what you guys worked on...

I think Leiber, Holland, and Smokey are very much acclaimed (Pomus to a lesser extent) but I don't think that acclaim necessarily correlates to artistic greatness, though very poetic songwriters tend to score high in it. They were very different types of lyricists with a very different purpose than the Dylans or the Cohens of the world so they are acclaimed in a very different way. Leiber, Holland and Smokey were very acclaimed by their peers and their body of work is certainly above most others.

So with Holland, I think he beats everybody in his group except probably Berry in his body of work (the sort of "greatness of songs" criteria), but I'll give Mayfield and Springsteen the edge in acclaim as lyricists. I think Chuck D is possibly bellow him in acclaim, but even if not Holland has a healthy lead in influence and body of work. I would put Holland 4th at least, though I think there's a strong case for as high as 2 if we go by the criteria, but top 4 for him will be good enough.



I had Leiber above Morrison but I could see Morrison edging out Leiber for influence and acclaim so the top 5 is great. I also had Hiatt at number 6 for his wide acclaim, and had Mangum a bit higher at 11. Despite his relatively low popularity, the strong sect of music fans that know them hold him in high acclaim and In The Aeroplane, also a low popularity but highly acclaimed album, is very lyrically driven with lines that are something of classics to the indie/hipster world. I don't have strong opinions on the rest of the list though. I've made rough lists for all the sections already but I'll wait until we've went through these real quick.

Leiber is probably more influential than Morrison though. His lyrics represent shift from '40s rock and roll to rock as teenage rebellion music. His Coasters lyrics were also Innovative. Some great points overall, J, especially on Smokey, Leiber and Holland.

If so Leiber should jump Morrison at the least

Johnny-come-lately here, but Geezer over Harrison and E. Smith? I’m really very surprised to see Geezer ranked highly at all.

My rationale was that he's influential on metal lyrics by using darker, occult imagery and also penned lyrics to all these classic Sabbath songs which helps him in body of work criterion. So breakdown goes something like this:

Influence: Geezer > Harrison > Smith
Acclaim: Smith > Harrison > Geezer
Body of work: Geezer > Harrison > Smith

Pretty much my thoughts as well

Cool with you, J?

1. Chuck Berry
2. Curtis Mayfield
3. Bruce Springsteen
4. Eddie Holland/Chuck D
5. Chuck D/Eddie Holland
6. Cat Stevens
7. David Bowie
8. Doc Pomus
9. Conor Oberst
10. Donald Fagen
11. Chris Difford
12. Don Henley
13. Carole King
14. Chris Cornell
15. Chris Collingwood & Adam Schlesinger

Are we sure Holland is more influential than Chuck D? Chuck raised the bar for militant and rebelious lyrics in hip-hop and arguably rock as whole.

1. Eminem
2. Jay-Z
3. Jackson Browne
4. Elvis Costello
5. Gil Scott-Heron
6. Ice Cube
7. Eddie Vedder
8. Frank Zappa
9. Geezer Butler
10. Elliott Smith
11. George Harrison
12. Ian Anderson
13. Gerry Goffin
14. James Taylor
15. Ian Curtis

I switched Carole King and Eddie Vedder between the groups to keep them alphabetical.

1. John Lennon
2. Joni Mitchell
3. Jerry Leiber
4. Jim Morrison
5. Joe Strummer
6. John Fogerty
7. John Hiatt
8. John Mellencamp
9. Jello Biafra
10. Joe Jackson
11. Jimi Hendrix
12. Jeff Mangum
13. Jerry Cantrell
14. Jonathan Richman
15. Jim Croce

Kept Fogerty ahead of Hiatt. Fogerty's string of protest songs is fairly notable and acclaimed and his body of work is a lot more known than Hiatt's. Also Hendrix over Mangum. Hendrix' greatest strenght is obviously not in lyrics but he did penn some classic lines and lyrical performances.

If Chuck D gets influence, and Holland gets body of work, who do you think acclaim goes to? Chuck is fairly well acclaimed but seems to me he's usually mentioned a tier below other great rappers as far as lyrical ability? Holland probably isn't outright acclaimed as a wordsmith but he has been inducted into multiple hall of fames for his work with HDH.

Everything else looks great to me.

While we're wrapping that last bit up.....



Well this was my initial list

1. Leonard Cohen
2. Kool G Rap
3. Laura Nyro
4. Kendrick Lamar
5. Kate Bush
6. LL Cool J
7. Kurt Cobain
8. Melle Mel
9. Mick Jagger
10. Lou Reed
11. KRS-One
12. Michael Stipe
13. Maynard James Keenan
14. Liz Phair
15. Mark E. Smith

Very different, so it's hard for me to make an obvious compromise.

-Firstly I think Kool G Rap is an undisputed #2. Immense in all respects, has to be one of the top rappers on this list. Not only a pioneer in hardcore rap content, but incredibly innovative multisyllabic rhyming and cited by many big name rappers as a direct influence.

-Another is Laura Nyro, who may be pretty high at #3, but has a solid body of work, acclaim, and is cited as a direct influence by many musicians. She doesn't need to be that high but should probably be nearer to the top on our combined list.

So going over it, I think an agreeable top 5 could be

1. Cohen
2. Kool G
3. Reed
4. Nyro
5. Mel

and a bottom 3 of

13. Mark E.
14. Maynard
15. Phair

Which leaves 6-12 really close. I think one thing to think about is where would we give credit for Kendrick's cultural impact? I would think it'd go under influence, as opposed to body of work which is more about the general popularity, importance and familiarity of their work outside of and including lyrics. If we go with this it makes up in his most lacking criteria, because his influence on other musicians at this moment is not that great being he is very much still in his prime. And with that he would probably rocket up the list possibly breaking that top 5 very well. I actually think the way we incorporate his cultural impact has a big shift in where he ends up so much so that I'd rather hear your thoughts before continuing with this section.

Hard to tell with regard to cultural impact. Things like Pulitzer Prize would go under acclaim. What do you view as his cultural impact apart from seemingly everyone being familiar with him and liking him?

I'd say To Pimp A Butterfly and to a slightly lesser extent Good Kid Maad City have been some of the most important works about the Black American experience made this century, not just telling a story but tackling complex issues such as institutionalized racism, police brutality, mental illness, self-hatred, gang warfare and religion and putting it farther into the mainstream than most have ever done. This, as well as multiple songs but particularly "Alright" becoming anthems for BLM and other protesters as well as a generation of Black Americans. Lamar's lyrics pretty much transcend music and is a touchstone as the face of the Black American struggle today.

This is moving so fast that I don't think I can comment on everything, but I will here and there. On the last group, I agree with jf's proposed top 3, but beyond that I'll just say that I think that LL Cool J should be the lowest of the rappers in that group.

Avery_Island was a big advocate for Mark E. Smith, and made a couple of comments about him on page 5 of this thread.