Greatest Rock Artists Of All Time (Revision Version)

[Tim]

As for "industry plant", sure, she has rich parents which is common in music industry tbh and was using her TV appearance as a boost for her music career (think Ricky Nelson). If we wanna punish her for that, surely there are a host of other pop/rock artists on this list we would have to punish as well.

[Tim]

Of course we can still discuss Ariana Grande & R.Kelly but my attempt at re-inserting the next 10 artists:

131. Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention
132. Etta James
133. Wilson Pickett
134. Janis Joplin/Big Brother and the Holding Company
135. Justin Timberlake
136. Blondie
137. Billy Joel
138. Martha & the Vandellas
139. Iron Maiden
140. Chic
141. Talking Heads
142. The Smiths
143. The Cure
144. Crosby, Stills & Nash (& Young)
145. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
146. Sex Pistols
147. Sam & Dave
148. Elvis Costello
149. Oasis
150. Daft Punk
151. TLC
152. Kate Bush
153. Roxy Music
154. Genesis
155. Dire Straits
156. Nas
157. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
158. Paul Simon
159. Eddie Cochran
160. Patti Smith
161. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
162. The Yardbirds
163. A Tribe Called Quest
164. Lana Del Rey
165. Alicia Keys
166. Pixies
167. Chicago
168. KISS
169. Rush
170. Usher
171. Frank Ocean
172. Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
173. Bad Bunny
174. Kool & the Gang
175. Ariana Grande
176. Hall & Oates
177. Phil Collins
178. Cher
179. Diana Ross
180. R. Kelly

[Fido]

I don't see it in terms of "punishing" anyone, just comparing two artists head to head which have achieved certains levels of popularity, one with lots of help, and one without. I have done it with everybody, including Collins, Ross, Beyoncé (who all came from popular groups) and on the other end with artists working in an uncommercial style. Same with collabs, they are common, but there's artists who get to the top on their own and there's others who don't. With Ariana she was already famous and started in a major label with a famous and powerful producer, I wasn't even thinking about rich parents. The "half of her hits are collabs" can be an exaggeration depending on how you see it: first single (and top ten hit), a collab with Mac Miller. Second top ten hit, #2 Billboard and #1 UK, a collab with Iggy Azalea. The next one, a collab with Zedd. The next one, a collab with Nicki and Jessie J. Next top ten, collab with the Weeknd. And there's more, you can look at it yourselves. Not saying they don't count, but it should be put into context. Seriously, the first paragraph of the criteria is all about putting things into context! And we are talking about a top 200 artist ever, I don't think I'm not giving her credit for saying this. She's an eclectic pop artist with decent variety? Ok, but Hall & Oates even more, and they actually wrote the material themselves!

[ManPerson]

I don't see it in terms of "punishing" anyone, just comparing two artists head to head which have achieved certains levels of popularity, one with lots of help, and one without. I have done it with everybody, including Collins, Ross, Beyoncé (who all came from popular groups) and on the other end with artists working in an uncommercial style. Same with collabs, they are common, but there's artists who get to the top on their own and there's others who don't. With Ariana she was already famous and started in a major label with a famous and powerful producer, I wasn't even thinking about rich parents. The "half of her hits are collabs" can be an exaggeration depending on how you see it it's an exaggeration in that half of her hits at this point are clearly not collabs: first single (and top ten hit), a collab with Mac Miller. Second top ten hit, #2 Billboard and #1 UK, a collab with Iggy Azalea. The next one, a collab with Zedd. The next one, a collab with Nicki and Jessie J. Next top ten, collab with the Weeknd. And there's more, you can look at it yourselves. Not saying they don't count, but it should be put into context. Seriously, the first paragraph of the criteria is all about putting things into context! And we are talking about a top 200 artist ever, I don't think I'm not giving her credit for saying this. She's an eclectic pop artist with decent variety? Ok, but Hall & Oates even more, and they actually wrote the material themselves!

Also pretty much irrelevant to the criteria, look who's number two on the list.

The thing is you seem to be measuring how much artists 'deserved' or 'earned' their popularity which seems less like putting it into context and more like trying to make the criteria more meritocratic.

Plus, most of her early hits were collabs but, on subsequent albums most of the hits were not, implying that while her early success can probably be attributed to a boost from the industry to some extent but her sustained success over the years was not. There have been plenty of failed industry plants over the years after all.

[ManPerson]

Of course we can still discuss Ariana Grande & R.Kelly but my attempt at re-inserting the next 10 artists:

131. Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention
132. Etta James
133. Wilson Pickett
134. Janis Joplin/Big Brother and the Holding Company
135. Justin Timberlake
136. Blondie
137. Billy Joel
138. Martha & the Vandellas
139. Iron Maiden
140. Chic
141. Talking Heads
142. The Smiths
143. The Cure
144. Crosby, Stills & Nash (& Young)
145. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
146. Sex Pistols
147. Sam & Dave
148. Elvis Costello
149. Oasis
150. Daft Punk
151. TLC
152. Kate Bush
153. Roxy Music
154. Genesis
155. Dire Straits
156. Nas
157. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
158. Paul Simon
159. Eddie Cochran
160. Patti Smith
161. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
162. The Yardbirds
163. A Tribe Called Quest
164. Lana Del Rey
165. Alicia Keys
166. Pixies
167. Chicago
168. KISS
169. Rush
170. Usher
171. Frank Ocean
172. Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
173. Bad Bunny
174. Kool & the Gang
175. Ariana Grande
176. Hall & Oates
177. Phil Collins
178. Cher
179. Diana Ross
180. R. Kelly

Looks good, I'd be fine with an R. Kelly and Diana Ross swap.

[Tim]

How I'd re-rank the next 10:

1. Rick Nelson
2. Jefferson Airplane
3. Yes
4. Carole King
5. Alice Cooper
6. The Righteous Brothers
7. Bon Jovi
8. Journey
9. Neil Diamond
10. Justin Bieber

Well, the top 3 all got lowballed quite a bit compared with old top 200 and I don't think it's entirely justified with Ricky Nelson being a popularity beast during the late '50s - early '60s and to my knowledge being the first rock artist to leverage his TV role into a music career, increasing rock's acceptance in the mainstream in process, being one of the ultimate teen idols of the 1950s, Elvis aside. Even musically Nelson happens to be a bit of country rock pioneer as we talked earlier. Yes are obviously prog rock goats, Floyd aside, leveraging quite a bit of influence, acclaim and popularity. Jefferson Airplane, cultural icons, leaders of San Francisco Sound and, while Grace Slick is obviously not the first female rock artist, she sorta codified female lead vocalist in a rock group for the album rock era, along with Janis I guess.

Carole King does have Tapestry and subsequent influence on confessional singer-songwriters going for her even if her stature as a solo artist isn't as big as her as a songwriter, Alice Cooper introducing shock rock aesthetic to hard rock/heavy metal, being a cultural icon and inspiring numerous hard rockers.

Most of the others I don't think register in much beside popularity (by this list's standards) even if these are popularity beasts except for Righteous Brothers codifying Blue-eyed Soul and "You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’" influence but with the latter I think most people credit Phil Spector for his Wall of Sound influence.

[ManPerson]

I think Justin Bieber has a ton of cultural impact, an early example of an artist breaking through on Youtube, plus his Purpose album was actually fairly influential on late 2010s pop music He, admittedly, probably not enough influence to measure up with some of the heavier hitters in this group, but, still, I'd probably give him popularity over Journey at least, while not necessarily being that much less acclaimed.

[Tim]

You make some good points re: Bieber, his cultural impact is undeniable and he is cited as inspiration by some pop stars of today such as Billie Eilish. So you suggested bumping him at #8? I do however feel he does not yet have songs of Don't Stop Believin' or Sweet Caroline stature, which are staples of pop culture, nor Neil Diamond's songwriting nor Steve Perry's vocal acclaim.

[Fido]

Also pretty much irrelevant to the criteria, look who's number two on the list.

Being an eclectic pop artist with decent variety was also irrelevant to the criteria

The thing is you seem to be measuring how much artists 'deserved' or 'earned' their popularity which seems less like putting it into context and more like trying to make the criteria more meritocratic.

I'm measuring how much an artist's popularity is due to their music and themselves, and since I'm comparing artists with similar popularity I take that into account.

I can shut up about Hall & Oates if I'm not convincing anyone, but she has no case against Phil Collins.

[Fido]

My take:

144. CSNY
145. Elvis Costello
146. The Yardbirds
147. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
148. Sex Pistols
149. Sam & Dave
150. Oasis
151. Daft Punk
152. TLC
153. Kate Bush
154. Roxy Music
155. Genesis
156. Nas
157. Dire Straits
158. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
159. Paul Simon
160. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
161. Eddie Cochran
162. Patti Smith
163. A Tribe Called Quest
164. Pixies
165. Lana del Rey
166. Alicia Keys
167. Chicago
168. Rush
169. Kiss
170. Usher
171. Frank Ocean
172. Afrika Bambaataa
173. Bad Bunny
174. Kool & the Gang
175. Phil Collins
176. Ariana Grande
177. Hall & Oates
178. Cher
179. R. Kelly
180. Diana Ross

Costello is way more acclaimed than Stooges/Pistols and more popular, even if less influential. Big bump for the Yardbirds as they kick ass in influence and musical impact, with good popularity and songs like For Your Love and Heart Full of Gold are classics. Sam & Dave vs the next group is hard but I don't care that much. Nas I'd say is slightly more acclaimed and influential than Dire Straits. I think the Teenagers are perfect above Cochran as the influence difference is negligible and they were more popular. Pixies are more influential and way more acclaimed than Lana and Alicia. Rush vs Kiss is hard but I'd put Rush's little wins over Kiss' big win. Don't care much though. On the last bunch I can live with that order though I don't really like it, and on Kelly vs Ross, what do we think about Kelly above Cher?

[Tim]

Didn't mean to imply that being eclectic is itself a part of criteria but versatility in artist is something praise-worthy usually so it does help Ariana in acclaim in my estimation. Of course, popularity is by far her strongest area but I do think she registers in acclaim as well.

I'd say Dire Straits beat Nas in popularity clearly so it may be enough to overturn the match-up but I don't feel too strong about it either way. KISS I'd say also are more culturally impactful than Rush by far so it's more than one criterion they are winning even if by Man's criteria cultural impact does not count as much.

[Tim]

If influence difference is negligible between Cochran and Lymon, I'd say popularity difference is as well, with Cochran having three top 40 singles in US, two top 10 singles in UK including #1.

For curiousity's sake my old interaction with Samp on 1950s artists list which touches upon Cochran v Lymon:

So I have to ask what made you evaluate Frankie Lymon's position as well as dropping Eddie Cochran? Not saying I disagree or anything just curious. Why Clyde McPhatter as solo artist so high? Why Otis Williams was lowered? Just couple of things that caught my eye.

More of a re-evaluation of the scope of the Musical Impact of Lymon and Cochran. Lymon was widely considered the absolute best at his style, a style which was more vital to the overall 50's rock scene than Cochran's style, one which was only remotely connected to rockabilly. Also, in years since the type of artists who even get ASKED about the guys who made an impression on them are obviously going to be artists more in line with Cochran, giving his stature a retroactive boost, which isn't representative of the full broad spectrum of rock at the time. So I took that into account more and made a slight adjustment accordingly.

McPhatter was always brutal to place, as I've long said his specific influence needs to be tied to his work with the Dominoes, since that's where the style originated. Yet that spread wider with the Drifters and then he finally got singular notice when he went on his own, so I sort of tiered the influence in a sense. But as for what he was specifically receiving Musical Impact for - his singing, that voice - that's a little harder to separate, as the brilliance of his voice itself never wavered, so he was getting fairly equal impact throughout, for that anyway, maybe not his songs as much. Plus commercially, as a solo artist 4 Top 30 hits, 3 #1 on the R&B Charts (including for a song that didn't even go Top 40 on the Pop Charts), gives him a much deeper resume in that sense than say Carl Perkins, who's in that same realm on the list. I think with Clyde, the general consensus among fans is he was mostly a let down as a solo act, because he (or Atlantic) veered away from the more rockin' material and arrangements that had made him so great with the Dominoes and Drifters, and that's definitely a fair criticism and one I fully agree with, but judged on simply what he DID rather than what he DIDN'T, he still rates pretty highly.

Otis Williams and The Charms I'd been giving a lot of credit for the impact of one song in particular, "Hearts Of Stone", and I finally agreed with others that it was probably a bit too much. Without that full impact they had no choice but to drop some.

[Tim]

As for Cher v R. Kelly, I'd say influence is about even with Cher being sorta precursor to Madonna with her re-inventions and remarkable longevity, cited as inspiration by numerous female pop stars that followed plus Believe influence. Cultural impact is Cher, popularity R. Kelly, acclaim Cher.

[Fido]

I can see Kiss over Rush. If it's the popularity advantage that puts Dire Straits over Nas I'd rather not. I agree with Sampson's point on musical impact so I mantain my placement of Lymon.

On Cher vs Kelly, I wouldn't give her a lot of influence credit for those re-inventions, I'd say that's more marketing than anything else (though it's not completely irrelevant) and it's a stretch to call her a precursor to Madonna for it. I can see them tied in influence especially considering cultural, but how is Cher more acclaimed than Kelly? Especially since we have credited some artists, like Dre, the M.G.'s or Chic for some of their work for other artists, we should do the same for Kelly.

[ManPerson]

You make some good points re: Bieber, his cultural impact is undeniable and he is cited as inspiration by some pop stars of today such as Billie Eilish. So you suggested bumping him at #8? I do however feel he does not yet have songs of Don't Stop Believin' or Sweet Caroline stature, which are staples of pop culture, nor Neil Diamond's songwriting nor Steve Perry's vocal acclaim.

Yes, I'd bump him up to eight, though you do have a point about Diamond and Joruney's musical impact.

[ManPerson]

Also pretty much irrelevant to the criteria, look who's number two on the list.

Being an eclectic pop artist with decent variety was also irrelevant to the criteria

The thing is you seem to be measuring how much artists 'deserved' or 'earned' their popularity which seems less like putting it into context and more like trying to make the criteria more meritocratic.

I'm measuring how much an artist's popularity is due to their music and themselves, and since I'm comparing artists with similar popularity I take that into account.

I can shut up about Hall & Oates if I'm not convincing anyone, but she has no case against Phil Collins.

This seems very subjective, tbh. And I think the fact that she's sustained her popularity for over 10 years proves her music itself has a fair amount to do with it.