600 Greatest Rock Songs Of All Time (Revision Version)

[ManPerson]

I'm wondering how much credence should be given to the new acclaimedmusic update, with it calling itself a limited update, which may suggest a lack of rigor or thoroughness. "Proud Mary" and "Maggie May" dropping as much as they did also makes me wonder, because it would seem that songs as old as those two shouldn't be dropping that much at this late date. Do you know if they plan to revise their main site list to match that spreadsheet?

There won't be any further updates to the main site due to health issues on Henrik's part. The new update is considered a "limited" update because a) there was only a limited number of hand-selected sources added and b) it only updates the ranks of albums/songs that already had entries on the main site (which means, for example, that it still excludes everything from 2020 on).

They also gave more weight to more recent sources then they have on previous updates, iirc. I think it was still fairly rigorous, but with a methodology that probably led to some more drastic changes than in previous updates.

[ManPerson]

I'm wondering how much credence should be given to the new acclaimedmusic update, with it calling itself a limited update, which may suggest a lack of rigor or thoroughness. "Proud Mary" and "Maggie May" dropping as much as they did also makes me wonder, because it would seem that songs as old as those two shouldn't be dropping that much at this late date. Do you know if they plan to revise their main site list to match that spreadsheet?

For what its worth, Sittin On the Dock of the Bay/I Want You Back/Stand by Me have been well ahead of Proud Mary/Maggie May on AM's rankings for a while.

[ManPerson]

A couple more suggestions (sorry if this is too much)

- Sunshine of Your Love seems to be clearly less acclaimed and popular than the Redding/Jackson 5/King songs I mentioned before, though it also seems pretty high, in general. It's clearly less acclaimed and popular than Stayin' Alive, less acclaimed and influential than Nuthin but a 'G' Thang (which is very popular in its own right), less acclaimed, popular, and maybe even less influential, than I Want to Hold Your Hand. In general, it seems very comparable with the songs in the 70-80 range.

- One seems high, not sure why it's over 100 spots apart from Wonderwall and Creep, for instance. Though, I also think those two songs could be a bit higher

- I'd think Heartbreak Hotel would be Elvis' third highest ranked song, a lot more acclaimed than Don't Be Cruel, admittedly, a bit less popular, but also, I think, more influential as it was Elvis' mainstream breakthrough and it's been directly cited by Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin and others as a point of inspiration.

- Free Bird obviously has great lasting popularity, but its initial popularity is only pretty good, its acclaim is strong but far from top 75 level, and I'm not sure the song was hugely influential either. I don't know if its lasting popularity should bring it as high as it is when there are far more well rounded songs below it. I'd say it should be near More Than a Feeling/Roxanne/Dream On.

- Jeremy seems really high, not particularly strong acclaim or popularity for a top 100 song, some influence but not nearly substantial enough to justify its placement imo.

Some songs that are clearly both more acclaimed and popular that are below it include:
Beat It
Sweet Child O' Mine
Under the Bridge
More Than A Feeling
Sweet Dreams
Sweet Home Alabama
California Dreamin'
Girls Just Want to Have Fun
Sultans of Swing
With or Without You
Brown Eyed Girl
Heart of Glass
Wonderwall
Lose Yourself
Creep
California Love
Enter Sandman
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough
Crazy In Love (which should also probably be a bit higher)
Seven Nation Army
Rolling in the Deep
1979
No Scrubs (which is also probably a bit low, I don't think Jeremy needs to be moved outside of the top 500 or anything, lol)

- Tears in Heaven has really strong initial popularity but seems fairly subpar in the other criteria. Same with Addicted To Love, Smooth and You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet.

- I like Roundabout a lot, but its placement definitely seems high. It wasn't a huge hit, its lasting popularity isn't huge either, and it isn't even top 2000 on AcclaimedMusic. I guess part of why it's there is to give Yes a song in the top 300, but do they need to have a song in that range more than say, Biggie, Britney Spears or Kendrick Lamar?

- Old Time Rock n Roll only seems to do well in lasting popularity, and even then, its lasting popularity isn't extraordinary or anything.

[Brian]

I'm wondering how much credence should be given to the new acclaimedmusic update, with it calling itself a limited update, which may suggest a lack of rigor or thoroughness. "Proud Mary" and "Maggie May" dropping as much as they did also makes me wonder, because it would seem that songs as old as those two shouldn't be dropping that much at this late date. Do you know if they plan to revise their main site list to match that spreadsheet?

There won't be any further updates to the main site due to health issues on Henrik's part. The new update is considered a "limited" update because a) there was only a limited number of hand-selected sources added and b) it only updates the ranks of albums/songs that already had entries on the main site (which means, for example, that it still excludes everything from 2020 on).

They also gave more weight to more recent sources then they have on previous updates, iirc. I think it was still fairly rigorous, but with a methodology that probably led to some more drastic changes than in previous updates.

OK, thanks to both of you. I'm not sure I like the idea of weighing newer sources more heavily than older ones. For instance, I think the most recent Rolling Stone songs list isn't as good as the earlier ones. Maybe the thing to do is to consider both the newest and the previous ranking when judging acclaim. And some of the arguments being made may still be valid even if one uses the old rankings instead of the new ones.

I've always thought that Acclaimedmusic has a little bit of a pro-British bias. I've used it anyway, because most sources have some bias, so I believe a bit of a bias doesn't mean you have to reject the course, it just means that you have to take the bias into account when using that source. In particular, for some time I've thought that they generally have Bowie, the Sex Pistols, and Oasis a bit high, and also "Bohemian Rhapsody", and maybe even Queen in general. So I try to adjust the ranking they give to undo the bias.

Of the new suggestions, you're probably right about "Jeremy". Its placement here is a reflection of its placement on the '90s songs list which I edit, and it's probably too high there too.

You mentioned "Free Bird" being a bit high. Bruce said years ago that he thought "Let's Get It On" should be ahead of it. The comparison came up because I have them as the top 2 songs of 1973. Maybe he was right all along, and maybe there's a stronger case for it now than before. It likely ends up that way if "Free Bird" drops significantly.

I think it used to be that "Don't Be Cruel" was more acclaimed than "Heartbreak Hotel", with some viewing HH as a slight misstep by Elvis and DBC being where he really nailed it after coming to RCA. Maybe that has changed, or maybe the European participation in acclaimedmusic is what put HH higher.

[ManPerson]

Fwiw, Heartbreak Hotel has been well ahead of Don't Be Cruel on every AcclaimedMusic update. https://www.acclaimedmusic.net/history_songs.htm

[Brian]

I checked the countries that "Heartbreak Hotel" and "Don't Be Cruel" got their support from, and there was a difference between American and other sources. Slightly more than half of the support for "Don't Be Cruel" came from the US, while well over half of the support for "Heartbreak Hotel" came from non-US sources. However, looking at it another way, there were more US sources listed for HH than for DBC, and HH was higher on the 2 Rolling Stone (US) polls. I still think it's a more recent perspective though. Even the earliest acclaimedmusic rankings came out more than 40 years after the 2 songs were released.

I've been looking "Jeremy" and I agree that it's more than a little too high, not only on this list, but also on my '90s songs list. I'm in favor of adjusting that even if that's all that's adjusted.

[ManPerson]

Fwiw, Heartbreak Hotel was Elvis's second song inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame (after Hound Dog). It's also in the Rock Hall's list of 500 songs that shaped rock and roll while Don't Be Cruel isn't. On RIAA's list of the top songs of the century Don't Be Cruel is a bit ahead of Heartbreak Hotel, however it's not listed on its own, rather it's listed with Hound Dog, and I'm willing to bet that placement was mostly because of Hound Dog. All three of these are clearly American sources, and it's not like acclaim in Europe is total bs either.

I guess what I'm saying is that Heartbreak Hotel has clearly been ahead of Don't Be Cruel in acclaim for at least 2-3 decades.

[ManPerson]

Also, Brian, would it be helpful if I edited my posts to include only the suggestions I see as most necessary? I realize I made a lot of them.

[ManPerson]

You mentioned "Free Bird" being a bit high. Bruce said years ago that he thought "Let's Get It On" should be ahead of it. The comparison came up because I have them as the top 2 songs of 1973. Maybe he was right all along, and maybe there's a stronger case for it now than before. It likely ends up that way if "Free Bird" drops significantly.

Let's Get It On seems to be clearly more acclaimed, since it's well ahead on AcclaimedMusic (which definitely has a classic rock bias) and was ahead on both Rolling Stone lists. Popularity seems close, initial going to Let's Get It On, lasting going to Free Bird, though the initial win is probably bigger.

[Brian]

Also, Brian, would it be helpful if I edited my posts to include only the suggestions I see as most necessary? I realize I made a lot of them.

Yes, that would be helpful. You don't necessarily need to delete the suggestions that you think are less necessary. You could just do something to clearly distinguish what you think are the more necessary suggestions, such as bolding them or making them a different color.

However, the first thing I want to do is to determine where I think that "Jeremy" should be on the '90s songs list, because I think I currently have it much too high there. That's worth doing mostly for the own sake of that list, but it will also put me in a better position to advocate it moving down on this list.

[ManPerson]

I bolded the suggestions I see as most necessary.

[Tim]

For curiousity's sake here's an attempt of implementing some of ManPerson's suggestions (plus a couple of other moves) for the top 100 while keeping it mostly in tact.

1. Respect - Aretha Franklin
2. Johnny B. Goode - Chuck Berry
3. Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
4. Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley & His Comets
5. Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin
6. Louie Louie - The Kingsmen
7. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye / Gladys Knight & The Pips
8. (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
9. Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley
10. Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
11. Hey Jude - Beatles
12. Good Vibrations - Beach Boys
13. Tutti-Frutti - Little Richard
14. What'd I Say - Ray Charles
15. Hotel California - Eagles
16. You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Righteous Brothers
17. My Girl - Temptations
18. Imagine - John Lennon
19. What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
20. Smells Like Teen Spirit - Nirvana
21. Hound Dog - Elvis Presley / Big Mama Thornton
22. Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
23. Light My Fire - Doors
24. Superstition - Stevie Wonder
25. Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
26. Layla - Derek and the Dominos
27. A Day In The Life - Beatles
28. Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran /Blue Cheer / The Who
29. You Really Got Me - Kinks / Van Halen
30. Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
31. Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown
32. Long Tall Sally - Little Richard
33. Purple Haze - Jimi Hendrix Experience
34. She Loves You - Beatles
35. Whole Lot of Shakin' Going On - Jerry Lee Lewis
36. That'll Be The Day - Buddy Holly & the Crickets
37. Every Breath You Take - Police
38. Hey Ya - OutKast
39. Maybellene - Chuck Berry
40. Bo Diddley - Bo Diddley
41. Let's Stay Together - Al Green
42. When Doves Cry - Prince
43. My Generation - The Who
44. Losing My Religion - R.E.M.
45. I Want To Hold Your Hand - Beatles
46. Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin
47. (Sittin' On) The Dock Of The Bay - Otis Redding
48. A Change Is Gonna Come - Sam Cooke
49. All Along The Watchtower - Jimi Hendrix Experience
50. The Message - Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
51. One - U2
52. Be My Baby - Ronettes
53. Mr. Tambourine Man - Byrds / Bob Dylan
54. Great Balls Of Fire - Jerry Lee Lewis
55. Shake, Rattle And Roll - Joe Turner / Bill Haley and His Comets
56. Walk This Way - Aerosmith / Run-D.M.C.
57. Let It Be - Beatles
58. I Want You Back - Jackson 5
59. American Pie - Don McLean
60. Stand By Me - Ben E. King
61. Blue Suede Shoes - Carl Perkins / Elvis Presley
62. Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley
63. Won't Get Fooled Again - The Who
64. Stayin' Alive - Bee Gees
65. Dancing Queen - ABBA
66. Nuthin' But a "G" Thang - Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg
67. Brown Sugar - Rolling Stones
68. Let's Get It On - Marvin Gaye
69. When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge
70. Sunshine Of Your Love - Cream
71. Good Rockin' Tonight - Wynonie Harris / Roy Brown / Elvis Presley
72. In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett
73. I Will Survive - Gloria Gaynor
74. Super Freak - Rick James
75. A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum
76. Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival / Ike & Tina Turner
77. Go Your Own Way - Fleetwood Mac
78. Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - Temptations
79. House Of The Rising Sun - Animals
80. Yesterday - Beatles
81. Where Did Our Love Go - Supremes
82. Rapper's Delight - Sugarhill Gang
83. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
84. I Love Rock 'N' Roll - Joan Jett & The Blackhearts
85. Don't You Want Me? - Human League
86. Crazy in Love - Beyoncé feat. Jay-Z
87. Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley
88. Like a Virgin - Madonna
89. Beat It - Michael Jackson
90. Sweet Child O' Mine - Guns N' Roses
91. Under the Bridge - Red Hot Chili Peppers
92. Your Song - Elton John
93. Free Bird - Lynyrd Skynyrd
94. The Sounds Of Silence - Simon & Garfunkel
95. Don't Stop Believin' - Journey
96. Soul Man - Sam & Dave
97. Paint It, Black - Rolling Stones
98. Bye Bye Love - Everly Brothers
99. Earth Angel - Penguins
100. Crazy - Gnarls Barkley

Songs moved up or promoted to the top 100 in bold, moved down in pink-ish.

[ManPerson]

I'd get behind a lot of your suggested changes (to be clear, I specifically mean the ones that weren't already suggested by me), though I'm kind of meh on moving down Let's Stay Together. I think it's more acclaimed and popular than She Loves You, Long Tall Sally, Whole Lot of Shakin' Going On and some others as well.

I'd have Be My Baby even higher.

Popularity seems close against She Loves You, influence probably goes to She Loves You (though Be My Baby is highly influential as well), while Be My Baby comfortably takes acclaim.

When compared with Purple Haze, Purple Haze probably takes influence, while Be My Baby takes acclaim and popularity, similar deal with Papa's Got a Brand New Bag, though in that case the win in influence is more clear.

When compared with You Really Got Me, Be My Baby takes acclaim, while popularity and influence seem close.

When compared with ADitL, acclaim seems close, popularity would go to Be My Baby, influence would probably go to A Day in the Life.

I'd also have Dock of the Bay up a couple more spots since it seems to have similar popularity while being a bit more acclaimed. It also seems both more acclaimed and popular than Whole Lotta Love.

I'm sure this has been discussed a lot already, but I think Smells Like Teen Spirit could move up a bit. The only thing Hotel California, My Girl and YLTLF clearly have on it at this point is initial popularity.

[ManPerson]

Btw, I scoured the old forum and found this discussion of the 1970s ranking

The discussion a few days ago about the placement of "Bohemian Rhapsody" on this list got me looking at my '70s songs list and doing more research about it, and I now think "Bohemian Rhapsody" should move ahead of "Layla". Even if you accept that BR's placement on acclaimedmusic is a bit skewed and that really "Layla" is more acclaimed, BR's advantage in lasting popularity is big enough to more than make up for that. BR probably beats "Layla" initial popularity too.

Judging the lasting popularity of "Layla" is tricky in 2 of the sources that I use to judge that, Spotify and last.fm. It seems insufficient to only give it for the listens and scrobbles that it receives under the Derek & the Dominos heading, because it is also included on Eric Clapton compilation albums. However, if you add the listens/scrobbles that it gets under Clapton's heading, you'd also be giving it credit for the listens/scrobbles of the '90s acoustic version, which doesn't seem right, since it's a very different record with a different artist listed. It should probably get a certain percentage of those listens/scrobbles, but how does one determine what percentage?

"I Will Survive" also came up in discussion in this thread, and I expect that when I update the '70s songs list, it will be in the top 20.

Yes, I think "Stayin' Alive" should at least be ahead of "Won't Get Fooled Again", "American Pie", and "Maggie May", and possibly higher. Those 3 songs don't beat "Stayin' Alive" by a significant margin in anything, but "Stayin' Alive" easily beats "Won't Get Fooled Again" in initial popularity and "American Pie" in acclaim, and easily has more listens at Spotify and more scrobbles at last.fm than any of the other 3 songs. Lots of views at Youtube too.

I think that the overall stature of "Won't Get Fooled Again" has fallen a bit in recent years. It's lower at acclaimdmusic than it used to be, and it has fewer Spotify listens and last.fm scrobbles than either "Baba O'Riley" or "Behind Blue Eyes". I think it should probably still be the highest Who song on the '70s list, but by a smaller margin than before.

A song that I now think my '70s list very much underrates is "Dancing Queen", which is at #33. It went to #1 in the US, the UK, and other countries, is the #20 song of the '70s at acclaimed music, and is even higher than "Stayin' Alive" at Spotify and last.fm, and a Youtube video with 580 million views. I think it should at least be right after "Stayin' Alive".

So with Bo Rhap up to #7, there are 3 spots after it in the top 10, and at least 6 songs that have at least some case for a spot in the top 10: "Layla", "Bridge Over Troubled Water", "Let's Stay Together", "Let It Be", "Stayin' Alive", and "Dancing Queen". If we're looking for songs that best combine initial popularity, lasting popularity, and acclaim, "Layla" is definitely the one with the least initial popularity of those 6. According to acclaimedmusic, "Let It Be" is fairly easily the least acclaimed, though the idea that "Dancing Queen" is more acclaimed than "Let It Be" seems strange to me. Of the remaining 4 songs, "Bridge Over Troubled Water" has the fewest Spotify listens, the fewest last.fm scrobbles, and the fewest Youtube views. So this would seem to point to the last 3 positions in the top 10 going to "Let's Stay Together", "Stayin' Alive", and "Dancing Queen".

[Tim]

I guess I jumped the gun on Let's Stay Together, my first thought was that it's lacking in influence compared with the most songs in #31-40 range hence the switch but I guess it offsets it with strong popularity and acclaim.

[Brian]

Btw, I scoured the old forum and found this discussion of the 1970s ranking

The discussion a few days ago about the placement of "Bohemian Rhapsody" on this list got me looking at my '70s songs list and doing more research about it, and I now think "Bohemian Rhapsody" should move ahead of "Layla". Even if you accept that BR's placement on acclaimedmusic is a bit skewed and that really "Layla" is more acclaimed, BR's advantage in lasting popularity is big enough to more than make up for that. BR probably beats "Layla" initial popularity too.

Judging the lasting popularity of "Layla" is tricky in 2 of the sources that I use to judge that, Spotify and last.fm. It seems insufficient to only give it for the listens and scrobbles that it receives under the Derek & the Dominos heading, because it is also included on Eric Clapton compilation albums. However, if you add the listens/scrobbles that it gets under Clapton's heading, you'd also be giving it credit for the listens/scrobbles of the '90s acoustic version, which doesn't seem right, since it's a very different record with a different artist listed. It should probably get a certain percentage of those listens/scrobbles, but how does one determine what percentage?

"I Will Survive" also came up in discussion in this thread, and I expect that when I update the '70s songs list, it will be in the top 20.

Yes, I think "Stayin' Alive" should at least be ahead of "Won't Get Fooled Again", "American Pie", and "Maggie May", and possibly higher. Those 3 songs don't beat "Stayin' Alive" by a significant margin in anything, but "Stayin' Alive" easily beats "Won't Get Fooled Again" in initial popularity and "American Pie" in acclaim, and easily has more listens at Spotify and more scrobbles at last.fm than any of the other 3 songs. Lots of views at Youtube too.

I think that the overall stature of "Won't Get Fooled Again" has fallen a bit in recent years. It's lower at acclaimdmusic than it used to be, and it has fewer Spotify listens and last.fm scrobbles than either "Baba O'Riley" or "Behind Blue Eyes". I think it should probably still be the highest Who song on the '70s list, but by a smaller margin than before.

A song that I now think my '70s list very much underrates is "Dancing Queen", which is at #33. It went to #1 in the US, the UK, and other countries, is the #20 song of the '70s at acclaimed music, and is even higher than "Stayin' Alive" at Spotify and last.fm, and a Youtube video with 580 million views. I think it should at least be right after "Stayin' Alive".

So with Bo Rhap up to #7, there are 3 spots after it in the top 10, and at least 6 songs that have at least some case for a spot in the top 10: "Layla", "Bridge Over Troubled Water", "Let's Stay Together", "Let It Be", "Stayin' Alive", and "Dancing Queen". If we're looking for songs that best combine initial popularity, lasting popularity, and acclaim, "Layla" is definitely the one with the least initial popularity of those 6. According to acclaimedmusic, "Let It Be" is fairly easily the least acclaimed, though the idea that "Dancing Queen" is more acclaimed than "Let It Be" seems strange to me. Of the remaining 4 songs, "Bridge Over Troubled Water" has the fewest Spotify listens, the fewest last.fm scrobbles, and the fewest Youtube views. So this would seem to point to the last 3 positions in the top 10 going to "Let's Stay Together", "Stayin' Alive", and "Dancing Queen".

I thought that the old forum was gone. Can it still be accessed? I don't want to post there, but I might be interested in seeing a few old posts.