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I think that we did operate under the view that ABBA wasn't rock. They aren't on the '70s rock artists list either. However, maybe we should revise that view.

BTW, in the 3rd post of this thread, Fido asked when we would give up on Sampson revising this list. It appears now that Sampson has left the site for good, so now maybe someone other than Sampson can revise this list.

I know just a Man for the job.

If you insist...

Here's how I'd rank the current top 20, based on the usual criteria (Influence - 35, Popularity - 30, Acclaim - 25, Cultural Impact - 10). though I've sort of lumped influence and cultural impact together when ranking these.

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Madonna
6. Michael Jackson
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Stevie Wonder
9. Chuck Berry
10. Aretha Franklin
11. Led Zeppelin
12. Ray Charles
13. The Beach Boys
14. Jimi Hendrix
15. Marvin Gaye
16. The Who
17. Sam Cooke
18. Fats Domino
19. Little Richard
20. Bruce Springsteen

For curiousity's sake attempted to do it with the top 40 (kept your top 20 in tact).

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Madonna
6. Michael Jackson
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Stevie Wonder
9. Chuck Berry
10. Aretha Franklin
11. Led Zeppelin
12. Ray Charles
13. The Beach Boys
14. Jimi Hendrix
15. Prince
16. U2
17. Marvin Gaye
18. The Who
19. Pink Floyd
20. Sam Cooke
21. Fats Domino
22. Little Richard
23. David Bowie
24. The Supremes
25. Run-D.M.C.
26. Queen
27. Bruce Springsteen
28. Bob Marley & the Wailers
29. Nirvana
30. Neil Young
31. Buddy Holly & The Crickets
32. Elton John
33. The Temptations
34. The Everly Brothers
35. Public Enemy
36. Sly & The Family Stone
37. Bill Haley & His Comets
38. R.E.M.
39. Smokey Robinson & The Miracles
40. The Kinks

That looks solid at first glance. I think moving up David Bowie makes sense.

Also I can see Ray and Beach Boys over Zep. Would say Beach Boys' influence is more fundamental than Zep's, same goes for Ray.

Why Madonna > MJ?

Good question. I'd say:

Influence (incl. cultural): Madonna
Popularity: MJ
Acclaim: about even

So I lean towards Man's placement even though MJ was always ranked higher before.

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:09 am Also I can see Ray and Beach Boys over Zep. Would say Beach Boys' influence is more fundamental than Zep's, same goes for Ray.

I was strongly considering moving Ray and the Beach Boys ahead of Zep when I was working on the list, and might have ended up doing that if I had continued working on it. Same with Aretha, but I see both of you have already moved Aretha ahead of Zep. As I was awaiting Sampson's revision, one of the things that held greatest interest for me was what order he would put Aretha, Ray, and the Beach Boys in.

One more point on MJ vs. Madonna is that while it's probably true that MJ beats Madonna in popularity, she does very well there too, so he doesn't beat her there by all that much.

I think Fats Domino is being underrated in the recent posts. Moving MJ and Madonna ahead of him is fine, but I don't know if I'd move anyone else ahead of him. He was the most popular rock artist of the '50s except for Elvis. He doesn't have a weak area in the criteria. Some of the artists who are close to his equals overall might beat him in acclaim, but I think not by enough to make up for his strength in the rest of the criteria.

If influence is the most important criterion I can see Who being grouped with Zep, Hendrix, Fats as I think they beat Prince, U2, Marvin in influence clearly and comparable in acclaim (maybe a little behind of Prince).

A lot to unpack here, let's see...

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:09 am Also I can see Ray and Beach Boys over Zep. Would say Beach Boys' influence is more fundamental than Zep's, same goes for Ray.

I saw them as pretty close overall, with Zep's popularity win being the most decisive, though it's hard to compare them in that regard due to how album-focused Zep were.
If I had to rank them I'd say
Influence:
Ray > Beach Boys >= Zep
Ray's definitely number one here, imo, but all three are fairly close.

Acclaim:
I don't see a clear winner or loser here

Popularity:
Zep > Beach Boys > Ray

Since influence is the most important criteria I guess I'm fine with Ray > Beach Boys > Zep

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:48 am Good question. I'd say:

Influence (incl. cultural): Madonna
Popularity: MJ
Acclaim: about even

So I lean towards Man's placement even though MJ was always ranked higher before.

This, pretty much. I guess it could be argued MJ's win in popularity is big enough to take the matchup, but since Madonna arguably takes initial popularity I still lean towards her being ahead.

Brian wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 11:53 am
I think Fats Domino is being underrated in the recent posts. Moving MJ and Madonna ahead of him is fine, but I don't know if I'd move anyone else ahead of him. He was the most popular rock artist of the '50s except for Elvis. He doesn't have a weak area in the criteria. Some of the artists who are close to his equals overall might beat him in acclaim, but I think not by enough to make up for his strength in the rest of the criteria.

I figure he's a bit lacking in lasting popularity compared to some others in this range, though I probably underrated his initial popularity a tad. I could see him moving up a couple spots but I actually think Gaye clearly takes both popularity (especially lasting) and acclaim over him. I could be convinced otherwise, though.

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 3:29 pm If influence is the most important criterion I can see Who being grouped with Zep, Hendrix, Fats as I think they beat Prince, U2, Marvin in influence clearly and comparable in acclaim (maybe a little behind of Prince).

I think Marvin's probably ahead of The Who as well in acclaim, and I think his win in popularity is greater than The Who's win in influence.

Basically, I think Gaye's position on the list should be upgraded a bit.

What about this? (I'm still only looking at the current top 20 for now)
1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Madonna
6. Michael Jackson
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Stevie Wonder
9. Chuck Berry
10. Aretha Franklin
11. Ray Charles
12. The Beach Boys
13. Led Zeppelin
14. Jimi Hendrix
15. Marvin Gaye
16. Fats Domino
17. The Who
18. Sam Cooke
19. Little Richard
20. Bruce Springsteen

Think an argument can be made, Who's acclaim as live performers makes the acclaim criterion pretty close. Plus The Who were actually ahead of Marvin on last ever acclaimedmusic update (I know, should be taken with a grain of salt as a source).

I figure AM has a pretty strong bias against r&b and hip hop, though. Acclaim is definitely somewhat close but I still think Marvin takes it as I think him, Prince and Stevie are probably the most respected r&b recording artists in some order.

Fair enough. Good job on the top 20 update.

I think Madonna over MJ is crazy. Michael Jackson during his peak was probably the most famous person in the world bar none. There wasn't a point during their whole careers when Madonna was more popular than MJ, and they were contemporaries. I don't think she wins a single criterion honestly, only arguably cultural impact. I guess the notion of her being more acclaimed comes from ditching Musical Impact in favour of Critical Acclaim and going with AcclaimedMusic, something I disagree with as that artists list is not useful at all, esp when comparing an artist that has continued to make music with a dead one. Michael was also acclaimed as one of the best singers and dancers in the world, Madonna has nothing comparable to that.

ManPerson wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 8:44 pm A lot to unpack here, let's see...

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:09 am Also I can see Ray and Beach Boys over Zep. Would say Beach Boys' influence is more fundamental than Zep's, same goes for Ray.

I saw them as pretty close overall, with Zep's popularity win being the most decisive, though it's hard to compare them in that regard due to how album-focused Zep were.
If I had to rank them I'd say
Influence:
Ray > Beach Boys >= Zep
Ray's definitely number one here, imo, but all three are fairly close.

Acclaim:
I don't see a clear winner or loser here

Popularity:
Zep > Beach Boys > Ray

Since influence is the most important criteria I guess I'm fine with Ray > Beach Boys > Zep

Brian wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 11:53 am
I think Fats Domino is being underrated in the recent posts. Moving MJ and Madonna ahead of him is fine, but I don't know if I'd move anyone else ahead of him. He was the most popular rock artist of the '50s except for Elvis. He doesn't have a weak area in the criteria. Some of the artists who are close to his equals overall might beat him in acclaim, but I think not by enough to make up for his strength in the rest of the criteria.

I figure he's a bit lacking in lasting popularity compared to some others in this range, though I probably underrated his initial popularity a tad. I could see him moving up a couple spots but I actually think Gaye clearly takes both popularity (especially lasting) and acclaim over him. I could be convinced otherwise, though.

If in acclaim, acclaim by the artist's peers is part of what's being considered, then I'd say in that part of acclaim, it's Ray > Beach Boys > Zep. Ray was widely viewed as a genius, and Pet Sounds was very big with musicians.

Comparisons in lasting popularity are tricky with musicians of different eras. If we're comparing the current popularity of, say, Fats Domino vs. Prince, that's a comparison of Domino's popularity 70 years later vs. Prince's popularity 40 years later. So as hard as it is, lasting popularity ideally is considered in a way that doesn't discriminate against the earlier artist. I'm not saying that you're doing that, I'm just making a point to keep in mind.

ManPerson wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:38 pm I figure AM has a pretty strong bias against r&b and hip hop, though. Acclaim is definitely somewhat close but I still think Marvin takes it as I think him, Prince and Stevie are probably the most respected r&b recording artists in some order.

Agreed on AM, and also, because their overall list is based on a calculation based on both albums and songs, the result is a bias in favor of album artists, because singles artists do poorly in albums, but everyone, including album artists, has songs. So would consider the AM ranking in a limited way, and to the extent that it is a factor, I think the songs artists list is better than the overall artists list.