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I'm on board with just about all of those, although I don't think The Favourite, Act of Killing, or Ida need to move down. I wouldn't agree with moving down Amour or Tree of Life either, I think we all agreed to their placements when assembling the Top 500 list.

Made a mistake - "Knives Out" was supposed to be in green (pretty high popularity and good audience scores, even if Pain and Glory wins critical acclaim)

The Grand Budapest Hotel's use of different aspect ratios as a tool to differentiate between time periods was influential.

Dubrow555 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 11:55 pm Made a mistake - "Knives Out" was supposed to be in green (pretty high popularity and good audience scores, even if Pain and Glory wins critical acclaim)

That makes more sense, I was thinking it looked really out of place in the films you wanted to move down.

Dubrow555 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:46 pm I'm on board with just about all of those, although I don't think The Favourite, Act of Killing, or Ida need to move down.

I don't think the first three you mention need to move down a lot but I feel moving them down is pretty justified.

I see The Favourite as very comparable to films in the 55-65 range such as Hugo, Marriage Story and Blackkklansman from the same year.

The Act of Killing has universal acclaim but little popularity for a film in the top 50. Something like Phantom Thread or Melancholia is less universally highly rated with similar lasting critical acclaim but also more popular so I'd say it should be in the same range as those.

I figure Ida does about as well and in some cases worse in the criteria than other films from the same year that are below it on the 2013 list
vs Before Midnight
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Before Midnight
Initial Popularity: Close
Lasting Popularity: Before Midnight

vs Nebraska
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Nebraska
Initial Popularity: Nebraska close
Lasting Popularity: Nebraska close

vs The Wind Rises
Initial Acclaim: Ida
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Wind Rises
Initial Popularity: The Wind Rises
Lasting Popularity: The Wind Rises

vs Prisoners
Initial Acclaim: Ida fairly easily
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Prisoners fairly easily
Initial Popularity: Prisoners
Lasting Popularity: Prisoners easily

vs The Conjuring
Initial Acclaim: Ida easily
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: close
Initial Popularity: The Conjuring fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: The Conjuring easily
Influence: The Conjuring close

ManPerson wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 6:56 am

Dubrow555 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 11:55 pm Made a mistake - "Knives Out" was supposed to be in green (pretty high popularity and good audience scores, even if Pain and Glory wins critical acclaim)

That makes more sense, I was thinking it looked really out of place in the films you wanted to move down.

Yes, I'd recommend moving it up at least one spot on the 2019 list.

ManPerson wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 7:38 am

Dubrow555 wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:46 pm I'm on board with just about all of those, although I don't think The Favourite, Act of Killing, or Ida need to move down.

I don't think the first three you mention need to move down a lot but I feel moving them down is pretty justified.

I see The Favourite as very comparable to films in the 55-65 range such as Hugo, Marriage Story and Blackkklansman from the same year.

The Act of Killing has universal acclaim but little popularity for a film in the top 50. Something like Phantom Thread or Melancholia is less universally highly rated with similar lasting critical acclaim but also more popular so I'd say it should be in the same range as those.

I figure Ida does about as well and in some cases worse in the criteria than other films from the same year that are below it on the 2013 list
vs Before Midnight
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Before Midnight
Initial Popularity: Close
Lasting Popularity: Before Midnight

vs Nebraska
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Nebraska
Initial Popularity: Nebraska close
Lasting Popularity: Nebraska close

vs The Wind Rises
Initial Acclaim: Ida
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Wind Rises
Initial Popularity: The Wind Rises
Lasting Popularity: The Wind Rises

vs Prisoners
Initial Acclaim: Ida fairly easily
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Prisoners fairly easily
Initial Popularity: Prisoners
Lasting Popularity: Prisoners easily

vs The Conjuring
Initial Acclaim: Ida easily
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Ida easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: close
Initial Popularity: The Conjuring fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: The Conjuring easily
Influence: The Conjuring close

That's fair - I just probably wouldn't move it too far down as it is probably the single most acclaimed Doc of the decade, and there might be some influence there as well.

Without doing a ton of research, how about this for a top 40 draft?: (#1-21 reflections top 500 list)


1. Parasite - Bong Joon-Ho (2019)
2. Inception - Christopher Nolan (2010)
3. Mad Max: Fury Road - George Miller (2015)
4. The Social Network - David Fincher (2010)
5. Get Out - Jordan Peele (2017)
6. The Avengers - Joss Whedon (2012)
7. Boyhood - Richard Linklater (2014)
8. Gravity - Alfonso Cuarón (2013)
9. Moonlight - Barry Jenkins (2016)
10. A Separation - Asghar Farhadi (2011)
11. Toy Story 3 - Lee Unkrich (2010)
12. Inside Out - Pete Docter & Ronnie del Carmen (2015)
13. La La Land - Damien Chazelle (2016)
14. 12 Years a Slave - Steve McQueen (2013)
15. Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse - Bob Persichetti, Peter Ramsey & Rodney Rothman (2018)
16. The Tree of Life - Terrence Malick (2011)
17. Amour - Michael Haneke (2012)
18. Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtus of Ignorance) - Alejandro González Iñárritu (2014)
19. Roma - Alfonso Cuarón (2018)
20. The Grand Budapest Hotel - Wes Anderson (2014)
21. Django Unchained - Quentin Tarantino (2012)
22. Black Swan
23. The Wolf of Wallstreet
24. Her
25. Whiplash
27. The Irishman
28. Joker
29. Avengers: Endgame
28. Black Panther
30. Interstellar
31. Arrival
32. The King's Speech
33. The Revenant
34. Gone Girl
35. Once Upon a Time in... Hollywood
36. Drive
37. Call Me by Your Name
38. Lady Bird
39. Skyfall
40. Portrait of a Lady on Fire

(drops down below top 40: Shoplifters, Blue is the Warmest Colour, Three Billboards, The Favourite, The Great Beauty, Argo)

Year list changes:
-2012: Skyfall moves above Argo
-2014: Interstellar moves above Gone Girl
-2017: CMBYN + Lady Bird move up
-2018: Black Panther moves above Shoplifters
-2019: POALOF moves above 1917

*(I've come around to thinking maybe Interstellar > Gone Girl)

I know I'm rehashing year old debates at this point, but...

The Tree of Life vs Birdman
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Birdman fairly easily
Initial Popularity: Birdman
Lasting Popularity: Birdman fairly easily
Influence: Birdman close

The Tree of Life vs Roma
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Roma fairly easily
Initial Popularity: Hard to judge considering how Roma was distributed but probably close
Lasting Popularity: close
Influence: Roma

The Tree of Life vs The Grand Budapest Hotel
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Grand Budapest Hotel easily
Initial Popularity: The Grand Budapest Hotel
Lasting Popularity: The Grand Budapest Hotel easily
Influence: Not convinced either has that much

The Tree of Life vs Django Unchained
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Django Unchained easily
Initial Popularity: Django Unchained fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: Django Unchained easily

The Tree of Life vs Black Swan
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Black Swan easily
Initial Popularity: Black Swan fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: Black Swan easily

The Tree of Life vs The Wolf of Wall Street
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Wolf of Wall Street easily
Initial Popularity: The Wolf of Wall Street fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: The Wolf of Wall Street by a landslide

The Tree of Life vs Her
Initial Acclaim: close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Her easily
Initial Popularity: close
Lasting Popularity: Her easily

The Tree of Life vs Joker
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Joker easily
Initial Popularity: Joker by a landslide
Lasting Popularity: Joker by a landslide

The Tree of Life vs Avengers: Endgame
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life by a landslide
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Avengers: Endgame easily
Initial Popularity: Avengers: Endgame by multiple landslides
Lasting Popularity: Avengers: Endgame by a landslide

The Tree of Life vs Whiplash
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Whiplash by a landslide
Initial Popularity: close
Lasting Popularity: Whiplash easily
Influence: Whiplash was Chazelle's breakthrough so I maybe Whiplash slightly

The Tree of Life vs Arrival
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Arrival fairly easily
Initial Popularity: Arrival
Lasting Popularity: Arrival easily

The Tree of Life vs Black Panther
Initial Acclaim: The Tree of Life close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: The Tree of Life fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Black Panther
Initial Popularity: Black Panther by a landslide
Lasting Popularity: Black Panther by a landslide

Amour vs Birdman
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Amour close
Initial Popularity: Birdman
Lasting Popularity: Birdman fairly easily
Influence: Birdman close

Amour vs Roma
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Amour close
Initial Popularity: Hard to judge but probably Roma
Lasting Popularity: Roma close
Influence: Roma close

Amour vs The Grand Budapest Hotel
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Grand Budapest Hotel close
Initial Popularity: The Grand Budapest Hotel
Lasting Popularity: The Grand Budapest Hotel easily
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Django Unchained
Initial Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Django Unchained
Initial Popularity: Django Unchained fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: Django Unchained easily
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Black Swan
Initial Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Black Swan close
Initial Popularity: Black Swan fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: Black Swan easily
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs The Wolf of Wall Street
Initial Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Wolf of Wall Street close
Initial Popularity: The Wolf of Wall Street fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: The Wolf of Wall Street by a landslide
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Her
Initial Acclaim: close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: close
Initial Popularity: Her close
Lasting Popularity: Her easily
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Joker
Initial Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Joker close
Initial Popularity: Joker by a landslide
Lasting Popularity: Joker by a landslide
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Avengers: Endgame
Initial Acclaim: Amour fairly easily
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Avengers: Endgame
Initial Popularity: Avengers: Endgame by multiple landslides
Lasting Popularity: Avengers: Endgame by a landslide
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Whiplash
Initial Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Whiplash
Initial Popularity: Whiplash close
Lasting Popularity: Whiplash easily
Influence: Amour slightly

Amour vs Arrival
Initial Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: close
Initial Popularity: Arrival
Lasting Popularity: Arrival easily
Influence: Amour close

Amour vs Black Panther
Initial Acclaim: Amour close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Amour
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Amour
Initial Popularity: Black Panther by a landslide
Lasting Popularity: Black Panther by a landslide
Influence: Amour close

Dubrow555 wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 8:11 am That's fair - I just probably wouldn't move it too far down as it is probably the single most acclaimed Doc of the decade, and there might be some influence there as well.

I think The Act of Killing and The Favourite are still top 65-75 films for the decade ftr.

I'd have The Irishman a bit lower than you have it

The Irishman vs Black Panther
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Irishman
Initial Popularity: Black Panther by a landslide
Lasting Popularity: Black Panther fairly easily

The Irishman vs Interstellar
Initial Acclaim: The Irishman
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Interstellar
Initial Popularity: Interstellar fairly easily
Lasting Popularity: Interstellar fairly easily

The Irishman vs Gone Girl
Initial Acclaim: The Irishman close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Gone Girl close
Initial Popularity: Gone Girl
Lasting Popularity: Gone Girl fairly easily

The Irishman vs Once Upon a Time... in Hollywood
Initial Acclaim: close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Once Upon a Time... in Hollywood
Lasting Audience Acclaim: The Irishman
Initial Popularity: Once Upon a Time... in Hollywood
Lasting Popularity: Once Upon a Time... in Hollywood

The Irishman vs Call Me By Your Name
Initial Acclaim: close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Call Me By Your name close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: close
Initial Popularity: Probably The Irishman close
Lasting Popularity: Call Me By Your Name
Influence: Call Me By Your Name slightly

The Irishman vs Portrait of a Lady on Fire
Initial Acclaim: close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Portrait of a Lady On Fire fairly easily
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Portrait of a Lady On FIre
Initial Popularity: Probably The Irishman
Lasting Popularity: The Irishman close

So I think it should probably be somewhere in the 35-40 range

I also think Guardians' credentials are a bit better than Skyfall's
Initial Acclaim: Close
Lasting Critical Acclaim: Skyfall close
Lasting Audience Acclaim: Guardians close
Initial Popularity: Skyfall
Lasting Popularity: Guardians
Influence: Guardians slightly since it was a breakthrough for Chris Pratt

Very interesting...do we not want to factor in Irishman's VFX? It was to my understanding that they were pretty groundbreaking for the time. Not sure if we can call that influence or not.

The irishman's VFX seems like one of those things that seemed potentially significant at the time but hasn't really amounted to that much, but if others disagree I think where you currently have it is reasonable.

Ya same here. I'm fine with moving it down - below POALOF seems a bit of a stretch to me. I would be fine with replacing Skyfall with Guardians as well.

A few films that have used digital de-aging since 2019 (from wiki):

-Candyman
-Spiderman: No Way Home
-Avatar:The Way of Water
-The Flash
-Here
-Gladiator II
-Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny

*The more I think about it: I feel like both the VFX work in "Here" + "Indiana Jones 5" feel very reminiscent to the de-aging in The Irishman. Both films take very recognizable older actors and use VFX work to make them look like they did in films they were in 20-30 years ago. Thoughts?

It's not quite convincing to me yet. Even a little distracting at times. I think it'll get there, though, probably within the next few years.

Plenty of films also used digital deaging before The Irishman though.

Zach wrote: Sun Jan 19, 2025 10:38 am It's not quite convincing to me yet. Even a little distracting at times. I think it'll get there, though, probably within the next few years.

Sorry, I missed the context of the conversation, Dubrow. I'd give Irishman some influence in that regard.