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Fair enough. Good job on the top 20 update.

I think Madonna over MJ is crazy. Michael Jackson during his peak was probably the most famous person in the world bar none. There wasn't a point during their whole careers when Madonna was more popular than MJ, and they were contemporaries. I don't think she wins a single criterion honestly, only arguably cultural impact. I guess the notion of her being more acclaimed comes from ditching Musical Impact in favour of Critical Acclaim and going with AcclaimedMusic, something I disagree with as that artists list is not useful at all, esp when comparing an artist that has continued to make music with a dead one. Michael was also acclaimed as one of the best singers and dancers in the world, Madonna has nothing comparable to that.

ManPerson wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 8:44 pm A lot to unpack here, let's see...

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:09 am Also I can see Ray and Beach Boys over Zep. Would say Beach Boys' influence is more fundamental than Zep's, same goes for Ray.

I saw them as pretty close overall, with Zep's popularity win being the most decisive, though it's hard to compare them in that regard due to how album-focused Zep were.
If I had to rank them I'd say
Influence:
Ray > Beach Boys >= Zep
Ray's definitely number one here, imo, but all three are fairly close.

Acclaim:
I don't see a clear winner or loser here

Popularity:
Zep > Beach Boys > Ray

Since influence is the most important criteria I guess I'm fine with Ray > Beach Boys > Zep

Brian wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 11:53 am
I think Fats Domino is being underrated in the recent posts. Moving MJ and Madonna ahead of him is fine, but I don't know if I'd move anyone else ahead of him. He was the most popular rock artist of the '50s except for Elvis. He doesn't have a weak area in the criteria. Some of the artists who are close to his equals overall might beat him in acclaim, but I think not by enough to make up for his strength in the rest of the criteria.

I figure he's a bit lacking in lasting popularity compared to some others in this range, though I probably underrated his initial popularity a tad. I could see him moving up a couple spots but I actually think Gaye clearly takes both popularity (especially lasting) and acclaim over him. I could be convinced otherwise, though.

If in acclaim, acclaim by the artist's peers is part of what's being considered, then I'd say in that part of acclaim, it's Ray > Beach Boys > Zep. Ray was widely viewed as a genius, and Pet Sounds was very big with musicians.

Comparisons in lasting popularity are tricky with musicians of different eras. If we're comparing the current popularity of, say, Fats Domino vs. Prince, that's a comparison of Domino's popularity 70 years later vs. Prince's popularity 40 years later. So as hard as it is, lasting popularity ideally is considered in a way that doesn't discriminate against the earlier artist. I'm not saying that you're doing that, I'm just making a point to keep in mind.

ManPerson wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:38 pm I figure AM has a pretty strong bias against r&b and hip hop, though. Acclaim is definitely somewhat close but I still think Marvin takes it as I think him, Prince and Stevie are probably the most respected r&b recording artists in some order.

Agreed on AM, and also, because their overall list is based on a calculation based on both albums and songs, the result is a bias in favor of album artists, because singles artists do poorly in albums, but everyone, including album artists, has songs. So would consider the AM ranking in a limited way, and to the extent that it is a factor, I think the songs artists list is better than the overall artists list.

Fido wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 11:20 am I think Madonna over MJ is crazy. Michael Jackson during his peak was probably the most famous person in the world bar none. There wasn't a point during their whole careers when Madonna was more popular than MJ, and they were contemporaries. I don't think she wins a single criterion honestly, only arguably cultural impact. I guess the notion of her being more acclaimed comes from ditching Musical Impact in favour of Critical Acclaim and going with AcclaimedMusic, something I disagree with as that artists list is not useful at all, esp when comparing an artist that has continued to make music with a dead one. Michael was also acclaimed as one of the best singers and dancers in the world, Madonna has nothing comparable to that.

I think Madonna takes both influence and cultural impact, but I agree on musical impact/acclaim. Even going by critical acclaim, Thriller was the 1983 Pazz & Jop album of the year, and has continued to be highly acclaimed since then. I don't see anything by Madonna equaling that. Also, MJ's 3 most acclaimed songs are more acclaimed than any Madonna song. I see the amount of acclaimed music as a consideration, but to put Madonna ahead of MJ in acclaim on those grounds seems like making quantity too big a consideration.

I would not say Madonna wins acclaim over MJ I just think her musical versatility and longevity are lauded, more so than MJ's. Influence wise, she's a huge influence on dance pop and electronic music. I am not opposed to MJ ahead though as solo artists it's close, I just disagree with Fido Madonna is losing every criterion bar cultural impact.

Brian, would you suggest us keeping Fats over Hendrix and/or Gaye? Guess I can see arguments for both sides here.

Fats v Hendrix

Influence (incl. Cultural): Hendrix but Fats is also very influential, culturally as well
Popularity: Initial Fats, lasting Hendrix but as Brian said, not apples to oranges comparison, singles artist v albums, distinct eras as well
Acclaim: Hendrix is prolly the most acclaimed instrumentalist in rock so he takes it, I think

Fats v Gaye

Influence (incl. Cultural): Fats
Popularity: By raw numbers Gaye, but you could argue Fats was more popular in context of the 1950s rock music than Gaye was in context of the 1960-70s rock music
Acclaim: Gaye

Fido wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 11:20 am I think Madonna over MJ is crazy. Michael Jackson during his peak was probably the most famous person in the world bar none. There wasn't a point during their whole careers when Madonna was more popular than MJ, and they were contemporaries. I don't think she wins a single criterion honestly, only arguably cultural impact. I guess the notion of her being more acclaimed comes from ditching Musical Impact in favour of Critical Acclaim and going with AcclaimedMusic, something I disagree with as that artists list is not useful at all, esp when comparing an artist that has continued to make music with a dead one. Michael was also acclaimed as one of the best singers and dancers in the world, Madonna has nothing comparable to that.

If being a highly regarded singer and dancer was all that defined acclaim, then Chris Brown would be ahead of Boh Dylan. Madonna pretty much redefined what it meant to be a female pop star and has entire college classes dedicated to her cultural impact. She also had a hand in popularizing all sorts of dance/electronic styles across the 80s and 90s. I think Jackson's recognition is definitely larger (most famous person in the world and all that), but in terms of who was more of a paradigm shift for pop music and culture, I'd say Madonna.

Brian wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 1:03 pm

ManPerson wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 8:44 pm A lot to unpack here, let's see...

Tim wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:09 am Also I can see Ray and Beach Boys over Zep. Would say Beach Boys' influence is more fundamental than Zep's, same goes for Ray.

I saw them as pretty close overall, with Zep's popularity win being the most decisive, though it's hard to compare them in that regard due to how album-focused Zep were.
If I had to rank them I'd say
Influence:
Ray > Beach Boys >= Zep
Ray's definitely number one here, imo, but all three are fairly close.

Acclaim:
I don't see a clear winner or loser here

Popularity:
Zep > Beach Boys > Ray

Since influence is the most important criteria I guess I'm fine with Ray > Beach Boys > Zep

Brian wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 11:53 am
I think Fats Domino is being underrated in the recent posts. Moving MJ and Madonna ahead of him is fine, but I don't know if I'd move anyone else ahead of him. He was the most popular rock artist of the '50s except for Elvis. He doesn't have a weak area in the criteria. Some of the artists who are close to his equals overall might beat him in acclaim, but I think not by enough to make up for his strength in the rest of the criteria.

I figure he's a bit lacking in lasting popularity compared to some others in this range, though I probably underrated his initial popularity a tad. I could see him moving up a couple spots but I actually think Gaye clearly takes both popularity (especially lasting) and acclaim over him. I could be convinced otherwise, though.

If in acclaim, acclaim by the artist's peers is part of what's being considered, then I'd say in that part of acclaim, it's Ray > Beach Boys > Zep. Ray was widely viewed as a genius, and Pet Sounds was very big with musicians.

Comparisons in lasting popularity are tricky with musicians of different eras. If we're comparing the current popularity of, say, Fats Domino vs. Prince, that's a comparison of Domino's popularity 70 years later vs. Prince's popularity 40 years later. So as hard as it is, lasting popularity ideally is considered in a way that doesn't discriminate against the earlier artist. I'm not saying that you're doing that, I'm just making a point to keep in mind.

I figured Zep takes critical acclaim over BB and Charles while they both take acclaim with other musicians resulting in an overall tie. I'll note that I think Zep are the most acclaimed live act of the three as well. I moved them both ahead of Zep so I guess it's kind of a moot point.

For Fats Domino, I did try to adjust for era somewhat, though that's hard to do in practice. I will say that while he was definitely the 2nd most popular 50s rock artist at the time, he probably isn't now, I think Berry and Little Richard are clearly ahead of him for example. Also, I don't think every era of rock should necessarily be treated as equal for popularity, as rock's popularity within the music industry was much lower overall in the 40s and 50s than it is now. You wouldn't say that Wynonie Harris and MJ are equal in popularity, for instance, even though they may be the most popular rock artists of their eras.

Brian wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 1:08 pm

ManPerson wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2026 9:38 pm I figure AM has a pretty strong bias against r&b and hip hop, though. Acclaim is definitely somewhat close but I still think Marvin takes it as I think him, Prince and Stevie are probably the most respected r&b recording artists in some order.

Agreed on AM, and also, because their overall list is based on a calculation based on both albums and songs, the result is a bias in favor of album artists, because singles artists do poorly in albums, but everyone, including album artists, has songs. So would consider the AM ranking in a limited way, and to the extent that it is a factor, I think the songs artists list is better than the overall artists list.

Fwiw, I look at AM's song and albums list separately to adjust for that bias.

Brian wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 1:18 pm

Fido wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 11:20 am I think Madonna over MJ is crazy. Michael Jackson during his peak was probably the most famous person in the world bar none. There wasn't a point during their whole careers when Madonna was more popular than MJ, and they were contemporaries. I don't think she wins a single criterion honestly, only arguably cultural impact. I guess the notion of her being more acclaimed comes from ditching Musical Impact in favour of Critical Acclaim and going with AcclaimedMusic, something I disagree with as that artists list is not useful at all, esp when comparing an artist that has continued to make music with a dead one. Michael was also acclaimed as one of the best singers and dancers in the world, Madonna has nothing comparable to that.

I think Madonna takes both influence and cultural impact, but I agree on musical impact/acclaim. Even going by critical acclaim, Thriller was the 1983 Pazz & Jop album of the year, and has continued to be highly acclaimed since then. I don't see anything by Madonna equaling that. Also, MJ's 3 most acclaimed songs are more acclaimed than any Madonna song. I see the amount of acclaimed music as a consideration, but to put Madonna ahead of MJ in acclaim on those grounds seems like making quantity too big a consideration.

I'm not sure about this, I think Like a Prayer is probably more acclaimed than DSTYGE and Beat It, maybe Into the Groove and Like a Virgin as well.

I could definitely see the argument for Jackson > Madonna in terms of acclaim, though, since his top albums are clearly more acclaimed than hers.

Tim wrote: Tue Mar 03, 2026 2:06 pm Fats v Hendrix

Influence (incl. Cultural): Hendrix but Fats is also very influential, culturally as well
Popularity: Initial Fats, lasting Hendrix but as Brian said, not apples to oranges comparison, singles artist v albums, distinct eras as well
Acclaim: Hendrix is prolly the most acclaimed instrumentalist in rock so he takes it, I think

Fats v Gaye

Influence (incl. Cultural): Fats
Popularity: By raw numbers Gaye, but you could argue Fats was more popular in context of the 1950s rock music than Gaye was in context of the 1960-70s rock music
Acclaim: Gaye

If we want to adjust by era for lasting popularity, I'd say Gaye and Domino's primes were about 15 years apart, give or take and I think it's pretty safe in saying that Gaye is a lot more popular in 2026 than Domino was in 2011.

For Hendrix vs Domino, I'd say
Popularity: Domino
Influence: Hendrix
Acclaim: Hendrix

I guess you could argue that Domino's win in popularity is enough to take the matchup but I personally find that rather questionable.

I guess I don't really have that strong an opinion on Madonna vs MJ.

How about this?

1. The Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. James Brown
4. Bob Dylan
5. Michael Jackson
6. Madonna
7. The Rolling Stones
8. Stevie Wonder
9. Chuck Berry
10. Aretha Franklin
11. Ray Charles
12. The Beach Boys
13. Led Zeppelin
14. Jimi Hendrix
15. Marvin Gaye
16. Fats Domino
17. The Who
18. Sam Cooke
19. Little Richard
20. Bruce Springsteen

Personally prefer Hendrix > Fats > Gaye order as implied by my breakdown but I am ready to move on from the top 20.

Actually, I think Chuck Berry's win in influence may be enough to overcome Stevie's wins in popularity and acclaim, but if others want to keep it the way it currently is, that's fine with me.

By the same logic, Berry over Stones too?