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I'm fine with Hollywood being in front of KB Vol. 1

I figure Kill Bill has a clear win in lasting popularity, but I guess I'm fine with Hollywood ahead of it.

Updates for page 34:

Guillermo del Toro
1. Pan's Labyrinth (2006)
2. The Shape of Water (2017)
3. Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio [with Mark Gustafson] (2022)
4. The Devil's Backbone (2001)
5. Pacific Rim (2013)
6. Hellboy (2004)
7. Hellboy II: The Golden Army (2008)
8. Frankenstein (2025)
9. Nightmare Alley (2021)
10. Blade II (2002)

Jacques Tourneur
1. Out of the Past (1947)
2. Cat People (1942)
3. I Walked with a Zombie (1943)
4. Night of the Demon (1957)
5. The Leopard Man (1943)
6. Stars in My Crown (1950)
7. Canyon Passage (1946)
8. The Flame and the Arrow (1950)
9. Nightfall (1956)
10. Berlin Express (1948)

Maurice Tourneur
1. The Last of the Mohicans [with Clarence Brown] (1920)
2. The Poor Little Rich Girl (1917)
3. The Blue Bird (1918)
4. The Wishing Ring: An Idyll of Old England (1914)
5. Alias Jimmy Valentine (1915)
6. Victory (1919)
7. Figures de cire (1914)
8. The Pride of the Clan (1917)
9. Treasure Island (1920)
10. Aloma of the South Seas (1926)

Lars von Trier
1. Breaking the Waves (1996)
2. Dogville (2003)
3. Melancholia (2011)
4. Dancer in the Dark (2000)
5. The Kingdom [with Morten Arnfred] (1994/1997/2022)
6. The Idiots (1998)
7. Europa (1991)
8. Antichrist (2009)
9. The Five Obstructions [with Jørgen Leth] (2003)
10. The Element of Crime (1984)

Jan Troell
1. The Emigrants (1971)
2. The New Land (1972)
3. Everlasting Moments (2008)
4. Hamsun (1996)
5. Here's Your Life (1966)
6. The Flight of the Eagle (1982)
7. Il capitano: A Swedish Requiem (1991)
8. Land of Dreams (1988)
9. Who Saw Him Die? (1968)
10. Zandy's Bride (1974)

François Truffaut
1. The 400 Blows (1959)
2. Jules and Jim (1962)
3. Day for Night (1973)
4. Shoot the Piano Player (1960)
5. Stolen Kisses (1968)
6. The Last Metro (1980)
7. Small Change (1976)
8. The Wild Child (1970)
9. The Woman Next Door (1981)
10. Two English Girls (1971)

Tsai Ming-Liang
1. Goodbye, Dragon Inn (2003)
2. Vive l'amour (1994)
3. The Hole (1998)
4. What Time Is It There? (2001)
5. The River (1997)
6. Stray Dogs (2013)
7. I Don't Want to Sleep Alone (2006)
8. Days (2020)
9. Rebels of the Neon God (1992)
10. The Wayward Cloud (2005)

Tsui Hark
1. Once upon a Time in China (1991)
2. Zu Warriors from the Magic Mountain (1983)
3. Peking Opera Blues (1986)
4. The Battle at Lake Changjin [with Chen Kaige & Dante Lam] (2021)
5. Dangerous Encounters of the First Kind (1980)
6. The Butterfly Murders (1979)
7. The Battle at Lake Changjin II [with Chen Kaige & Dante Lam] (2022)
8. Shanghai Blues (1984)
9. Detective Dee and the Mystery of the Phantom Flame (2010)
10. Once upon a Time in China II (1992)

Jon Turteltaub
1. Cool Runnings (1993)
2. While You Were Sleeping (1995)
3. National Treasure (2004)
4. Phenomenon (1996)
5. National Treasure: Book of Secrets (2007)
6. The Meg (2018)
7. The Sorcerer's Apprentice (2010)
8. Last Vegas (2013)
9. The Kid (2000)
10. 3 Ninjas (1992)

Edgar G. Ulmer
1. Detour (1945)
2. The Black Cat (1934)
3. The Naked Dawn (1955)
4. Ruthless (1948)
5. The Strange Woman (1946)
6. Bluebeard (1944)
7. Strange Illusion (1945)
8. Green Fields [with Jacob Ben-Ami] (1937)
9. The Man from Planet X (1951)
10. Her Sister's Secret (1946)

Roger Vadim
1. Barbarella (1968)
2. And God Created Woman (1956)
3. Dangerous Liaisons (1959)
4. Blood and Roses (1960)
5. Pretty Maids All in a Row (1971)
6. Love on a Pillow (1962)
7. The Game Is Over (1966)
8. The Night Heaven Fell (1958)
9. No Sun in Venice (1957)
10. Vice and Virtue (1963)

W. S. Van Dyke
1. The Thin Man (1934)
2. Tarzan the Ape Man (1932)
3. San Francisco (1936)
4. After the Thin Man (1936)
5. Marie Antoinette (1938)
6. Naughty Marietta [with Robert Z. Leonard] (1935)
7. Trader Horn (1931)
8. Manhattan Melodrama (1934)
9. White Shadows in the South Seas (1928)
10. Another Thin Man (1939)

Melvin Van Peebles (1932-2021)
1. Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song (1971)
2. Watermelon Man (1970)
3. The Story of a Three-Day Pass (1967)
4. Don't Play Us Cheap (1973)
5. Confessionsofa Ex-Doofus-ItchyFooted Mutha (2008)
6. Gang in Blue (1996)
7. Identity Crisis (1989)
8. Vroom Vroom Vroom (1995)
9. Bellyful (2000)
10. Les cinq cent balles (1963)

Gus Van Sant
1. Good Will Hunting (1997)
2. My Own Private Idaho (1991)
3. Milk (2008)
4. Elephant (2003)
5. Drugstore Cowboy (1989)
6. To Die For (1995)
7. Paranoid Park (2007)
8. Finding Forrester (2000)
9. Gerry (2002)
10. Last Days (2005)

Agnès Varda
1. Cléo from 5 to 7 (1962)
2. Vagabond (1985)
3. Le bonheur (1965)
4. The Gleaners and I (2000)
5. Faces Places [with JR] (2017)
6. The Beaches of Agnès (2008)
7. La Pointe Courte (1955)
8. Jacquot de Nantes (1991)
9. One Sings, the Other Doesn't (1977)
10. Daguerréotypes (1976)

Matthew Vaughn
1. Kick-Ass (2010)
2. Stardust (2007)
3. X-Men: First Class (2011)
4. Kingsman: The Secret Service (2014)
5. Layer Cake (2004)

Paul Verhoeven
1. RoboCop (1987)
2. Total Recall (1990)
3. Starship Troopers (1997)
4. Basic Instinct (1992)
5. Black Book (2006)
6. Turkish Delight (1971)
7. Elle (2016)
8. Soldier of Orange (1977)
9. The Fourth Man (1983)
10. Showgirls (1995)

Dziga Vertov
1. Man with a Movie Camera (1929)
2. Kino-pravda (1922-1925)
3. Kino Eye (1924)
4. Enthusiasm (1930)
5. A Sixth Part of the World (1926)
6. Three Songs About Lenin (1934)
7. The Eleventh Year (1928)
8. Anniversary of the Revolution (1918)
9. Soviet Toys (1924)
10. Forward, Soviet! (1926)

And the new list:

Jon Watts (1981-)
1. Spider-Man: No Way Home (2021)
2. Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017)
3. Spider-Man: Far from Home (2019)
4. Star Wars: Skeleton Crew [with Christopher Ford] (2024-)
5. Wolfs (2024)

I'll send the page 33 updates to lew.

I'm curious about Elle vs Turkish Delight, The 4th Man vs Soldier of Orange and Drugstore Cowboy vs Elephant.

ManPerson wrote: Mon Nov 03, 2025 6:21 pm I'm curious about Elle vs Turkish Delight, The 4th Man vs Soldier of Orange and Drugstore Cowboy vs Elephant.

Turkish Delight may take initial popularity, but Elle takes lasting popularity much more easily. Critical acclaim seems a close win for Elle, audience acclaim a similarly close win for TD. Influence goes to TD for the breakthroughs of Verhoeven and Hauer mainly. I'd still give Elle the edge.

Initial popularity may be a close win for The Fourth Man but lasting popularity goes to SoO. Overall acclaim I'd say is another close win for SoO, with a particularly clear edge in audience acclaim. I don't think either has much influence.

Drugstore Cowboy vs. Elephant was one I went back and forth between myself. In the end, I decided that "Elephant" should probably be given the edge in just about every criterion except influence, of which DC may actually have less than I used to give it credit for.

I'm curious if The Idiots' influence on the Dogma 95 Movement would be enough to move it up one slot.

Dubrow555 wrote: Tue Nov 04, 2025 7:05 pm I'm curious if The Idiots' influence on the Dogma 95 Movement would be enough to move it up one slot.

Comparing apples and oranges is always a little difficult but with regards to the more specific parts of your question: I wouldn't consider The Idiots' influence on the Dogma movement particularly big, having come after Breaking the Waves and Festen. Its technical influence (being one of the first films shot only with digital handheld cameras) is probably more profound than its influence on filmic form.

Drugstore Cowboy takes audience acclaim and initial acclaim + better critic ratings on RT and Metacritic so I'd probably give it acclaim over Elephant.

When adjusting for the recency bias on rating sites I'm not sure Elle's win in lasting popularity is all that big, and I'd argue not enough overcome Turkish Delight's influence.

pauldrach wrote: Wed Nov 05, 2025 4:20 am

Dubrow555 wrote: Tue Nov 04, 2025 7:05 pm I'm curious if The Idiots' influence on the Dogma 95 Movement would be enough to move it up one slot.

Comparing apples and oranges is always a little difficult but with regards to the more specific parts of your question: I wouldn't consider The Idiots' influence on the Dogma movement particularly big, having come after Breaking the Waves and Festen. Its technical influence (being one of the first films shot only with digital handheld cameras) is probably more profound than its influence on filmic form.

I've never heard "Breaking the Waves" described as an official Dogma 95 film, as it breaks many of the rules. In terms of Festen - both movies premiered at Cannes 98' - essentially 3 days apart, so I suppose you could say that they were equal in terms of influence - but then again, it is rather niche. Just something I wanted to bring up.

Dubrow555 wrote: Wed Nov 05, 2025 8:15 pm

pauldrach wrote: Wed Nov 05, 2025 4:20 am

Dubrow555 wrote: Tue Nov 04, 2025 7:05 pm I'm curious if The Idiots' influence on the Dogma 95 Movement would be enough to move it up one slot.

Comparing apples and oranges is always a little difficult but with regards to the more specific parts of your question: I wouldn't consider The Idiots' influence on the Dogma movement particularly big, having come after Breaking the Waves and Festen. Its technical influence (being one of the first films shot only with digital handheld cameras) is probably more profound than its influence on filmic form.

I've never heard "Breaking the Waves" described as an official Dogma 95 film, as it breaks many of the rules. In terms of Festen - both movies premiered at Cannes 98' - essentially 3 days apart, so I suppose you could say that they were equal in terms of influence - but then again, it is rather niche. Just something I wanted to bring up.

BtW is not an official Dogma film but it was von Trier's first flim after initiating Dogma 95 and Wiki describes it as the precursor of the movement. Fair enough about the close release dates. Anyway, how do you think it compares to Riget if you want Idioterne ahead?

ManPerson wrote: Wed Nov 05, 2025 11:31 am Drugstore Cowboy takes audience acclaim and initial acclaim + better critic ratings on RT and Metacritic so I'd probably give it acclaim over Elephant.

When adjusting for the recency bias on rating sites I'm not sure Elle's win in lasting popularity is all that big, and I'd argue not enough overcome Turkish Delight's influence.

Paul, thoughts on this?

ManPerson wrote: Thu Nov 06, 2025 4:27 pm

ManPerson wrote: Wed Nov 05, 2025 11:31 am Drugstore Cowboy takes audience acclaim and initial acclaim + better critic ratings on RT and Metacritic so I'd probably give it acclaim over Elephant.

When adjusting for the recency bias on rating sites I'm not sure Elle's win in lasting popularity is all that big, and I'd argue not enough overcome Turkish Delight's influence.

Paul, thoughts on this?

Sorry, missed your post.

If DC takes these acclaim aspects over Elephant, it's not by very much. Elephant's win in lasting critical acclaim is clearly bigger than either of DC's acclaim wins. Since Elephant also takes popularity (initial and lasting) fairly easily, I'd still rather keep it ahead.

It's kinda hard to say whether you are overrating rating sites' recency bias or whether I am underrating it. To me 74k vs. 13k ratings (IMDb) and 129k vs. 15k views (Letterboxd) sounds pretty decisive. Yes, TD was a huge hit in the Netherlands but the Netherlands were and are a comparably small country and Elle simply was a bigger hit internationally if only in the arthouse market.

Ok, fair enough on Elephant and DC.

RE: Turkish Delight vs Elle

To level the playing field as much as I can, here's how both rank for their respective years on IMDb

Elle: 126
Turkish Delight: 47

It's a bit harder to easily rank films by number of watches on Letterboxd but based on popularity (which Letterboxd admittedly defines rather nebulously), here's where each film ranks for its respective year.

Elle: 105
Turkish Delight: 50

...and swapped.

Do we wanna stick Frankenstein on GdT's list somewhere near the bottom just as a placeholder for now?

We might as well wait a few months.