Greatest Rock Artists Of All Time (Revision Version)

[Tim]

I don't think adding Bad Bunny changes the list's focus any more than adding Santana or, further down the list, Shakira or Ritchie Valens. He could be reasonably considered rock in ddd world, he's beast in popularity, pretty acclaimed and has potential to be influential.

[Tim]

For curiousity's sake, found this breakdown from an old forum.

Since I know you love the Talking Heads this seems a little preferential subjectivity to me, Clash. Tell you what, make a strong argument for Blondie over the Talking Heads and see how fairly you credit them.

Well, I won't make an argument for them over Talking Heads (there's no "the"), but I'll do a comparison and you can tell me how accurate it is.

Popularity

Blondie has higher peaks with two top ten albums, but Talking Heads have seven albums that hit the top 30 to Blondie's four. Blondie also has a hits collection that hit #30, but Talking Heads also have a live album that hit #31. On the singles chart Blondie outperforms Talking Heads dramatically, but when a song of the stature and enormous airplay of "Once in a Lifetime" only charted at #103 on the Hot 100, that tells you something about the limitations of going by the charts. Still, four #1 singles is a huge achievement and easily gives Blondie the win in this criteria.

Musical Influence

Both are guiding lights of the New Wave movement. Blondie's "Rapture" coda helped break rap music into the mainstream, Talking Heads similarly helped launch world music with the African rhythms of "I Zimbra" and Remain in Light. Radiohead also took their name from a Talking Heads song.

Cultural Influence

Neither act has much, but Debbie Harry's model features and bleach-blonde locks helped them permeate the culture, as did David Byrne's artsy contributions like the "big suit", memorable music videos and the Stop Making Sense concert film.

Musical Impact

Here's where I think Talking Heads pull ahead of Blondie. I don't think there's any question that Talking Heads are the most highly regarded New Wave act, although Blondie are probably #2. Parallel Lines is one of the most well-regarded albums of its era. But Remain in Light is even more so. At acclaimedmusic.net Parallel Lines is #121, putting it in the realm of Aftermath, Nebraska and Bridge Over Troubled Water. Remain in Light is #35, putting it in the realm of The Joshua Tree, Let it Bleed and Who's Next.

So the question is whether Blondie's edge in popularity exceeds Talking Heads' edge in musical impact. And... you know what... it might.

EDIT: Yeah, I know musical impact is about impact on your fellow rock musicians, not critical acclaim.

Criteria not exactly the same as ours but if we favor popularity over acclaim then I'd lean towards Blondie.

[Tim]

Wonder which soft rockers/singer-songwriters you see as influenced by Joel, Fido? I wouldn't say he kills in musical impact either, only in popularity which still may be enough to give him a bump of sorts. As for Grande, I'd say she does well in critical acclaim which is, for better or worse, factored in by Man & me and also acclaimed as a vocalist which also falls under acclaim banner in some form. Not saying she can't be lower than we currently have her but since she made it into the top 10 artists of the 2010s by pauldrach I don't wanna lowball her too much either.

[Tim]

I'd also give acclaim (and cultural impact) to Pistols over Oasis, as polarizing as they were.

[ManPerson]

I kinda like the Timberlake move, and I agree with Tim on all accounts.

When it comes to Ariana Grande, I think she's way more acclaimed than, say, Ed Sheeran (who Fido mentioned), while they are fairly comparable in popularity (both do really well) and influence (negligible for this range of the list).

[Fido]

I don't think adding Bad Bunny changes the list's focus any more than adding Santana or, further down the list, Shakira or Ritchie Valens. He could be reasonably considered rock in ddd world, he's beast in popularity, pretty acclaimed and has potential to be influential.

Okay, but let's compare him with others. Should he be ahead of Shakira, now that you mention her? Is he more influential on introducing Latin music to the American mainstream? She already had various Top 10 albums and more singles, including one that topped the charts. Is he even more popular than her? Or against Daddy Yankee, the King of Reggaeton? Would we consider any of them as top 150 rock artists ever? Not against opening up the list, but it's a can of worms.

Joel is highly acclaimed as one of the best songwriters and pianists (and live performers) for decades at this point. I can't think now of specific examples of artists clearly influenced by him (except someone like Ben Folds) but along with Elton he made the singer/pianist figure much more common, and his narrative style of writing about everyday people and topics, along with the incorporation of various styles without losing his pop appeal was influential. I also remember this from Sampson's Live albums list: "Songs In The Attic was was one of the smartest things Joel ever did from a business standpoint, using his current popularity to boost the familiarity of his early work, since all of the songs he performed were pre-'77 cuts. It immediately sent his back catalog sales zooming, which was quite influential giving artists another avenue to promote older releases." That along with his cultural influence, with songs like Piano Man and We Didn't Start the Fire being bigger cultural mainstays than any song by this bunch of artists. Not a game-changer, but he does well in every criteria.

Not sure on the Pistols winning acclaim over Oasis. Having just the one album hurts them, and they are lower on AM, which favours both artists styles of music. Don't mind Blondie over Talking Heads but TH are ahead on both our New Wave and alt rock lists fwiw.

On Ariana Grande, not saying she should be outright dismissed but she only has popularity for this range. Some acclaim, sure, but compare her to Patti Smith, or Daft Punk, or Zappa, or Elvis Costello, I mean that's just off the top of my head as I type this. She has a big lead in popularity (and again, let's take context into account) and gets clowned on the rest. Which is understandable, as her career is like ten years old, she should be a game changer to achieve that position, but she isn't. Again, Sheeran loses acclaim (though I'd say in musical impact he is much closer, I've seen him praised much frequently for his songwriting, guitar playing and live performances), wins popularity (comparable, but he has broken and set many chart records and didn't have the help of being famous beforehand with all the industry connections that implies) and probably wins influence (negligible for this range too, but you can read about it on our favourite site).

[Tim]

Taking both Fido's list and Man's comments into account:

100. Depeche Mode
101. The Jackson 5/The Jacksons
102. The Platters
103. Jackie Wilson
104. Missy Elliott
105. Earth, Wind & Fire
106. Mary J. Blige
107. Wynonie Harris
108. Roy Brown
109. Van Morrison
110. Cream
111. The Isley Brothers
112. The Shirelles
113. The Dominoes
114. The Clovers
115. Ruth Brown
116. Joy Division/New Order
117. Red Hot Chili Peppers
118. Fugees/Lauryn Hill
119. Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons
120. The Weeknd
121. George Michael/Wham!
122. Eric Clapton
123. John Lennon
124. Deep Purple
125. Santana
126. The Band
127. The Orioles
128. The Four Tops
129. Billy Joel
130. Justin Timberlake
131. Blondie
132. Iron Maiden
133. Talking Heads
134. The Smiths
135. The Cure
136. Sex Pistols
137. Oasis
138. TLC
139. Bad Bunny
140. Ariana Grande

[ManPerson]

I don't think adding Bad Bunny changes the list's focus any more than adding Santana or, further down the list, Shakira or Ritchie Valens. He could be reasonably considered rock in ddd world, he's beast in popularity, pretty acclaimed and has potential to be influential.

Okay, but let's compare him with others. Should he be ahead of Shakira, now that you mention her? Is he more influential on introducing Latin music to the American mainstream? She already had various Top 10 albums and more singles, including one that topped the charts. Is he even more popular than her? Or against Daddy Yankee, the King of Reggaeton? Would we consider any of them as top 150 rock artists ever? Not against opening up the list, but it's a can of worms.
I'm certainly not gonna argue about influence but Bad Bunny's clearly been one of the most popular artists in the world over the past 5-6 years so I think Shakira and Daddy Yankee especially are not quite at that level of popularity. I also think Bad Bunny's clearly received more widespread acclaim (at least internationally) than Shakira and especially Daddy Yankee.
Joel is highly acclaimed as one of the best songwriters and pianists (and live performers) for decades at this point.
I still feel like he's treated by critics with more indifference than many others in this range.
I can't think now of specific examples of artists clearly influenced by him (except someone like Ben Folds) but along with Elton he made the singer/pianist figure much more common, and his narrative style of writing about everyday people and topics, along with the incorporation of various styles without losing his pop appeal was influential.
I don't think he's a particularly pioneering artist for any of this, though.
I also remember this from Sampson's Live albums list: "Songs In The Attic was was one of the smartest things Joel ever did from a business standpoint, using his current popularity to boost the familiarity of his early work, since all of the songs he performed were pre-'77 cuts. It immediately sent his back catalog sales zooming, which was quite influential giving artists another avenue to promote older releases." That along with his cultural influence, with songs like Piano Man and We Didn't Start the Fire being bigger cultural mainstays than any song by this bunch of artists.
Fair enough.
Not a game-changer, but he does well in every criteria.
So do Blondie and Justin Timberlake. I'd give Talking Heads acclaim and influence over him as well, for sure.

Not sure on the Pistols winning acclaim over Oasis. Having just the one album hurts them, and they are lower on AM, which favours both artists styles of music. Don't mind Blondie over Talking Heads but TH are ahead on both our New Wave and alt rock lists fwiw.
I think Talking Heads' sound is closer to alt-rock than Blondie, which probably plays a factor in that ranking.

On Ariana Grande, not saying she should be outright dismissed but she only has popularity for this range. Some acclaim, sure, but compare her to Patti Smith, or Daft Punk, or Zappa, or Elvis Costello, I mean that's just off the top of my head as I type this. She has a big lead in popularity (and again, let's take context into account) and gets clowned on the rest. Which is understandable, as her career is like ten years old, she should be a game changer to achieve that position, but she isn't. Again, Sheeran loses acclaim (though I'd say in musical impact he is much closer, I've seen him praised much frequently for his songwriting, guitar playing and live performances), wins popularity (comparable, but he has broken and set many chart records and didn't have the help of being famous beforehand with all the industry connections that implies) and probably wins influence (negligible for this range too, but you can read about it on our favourite site).
Good points overall, though I think you're overblowing how famous she was before she started making music. Being a supporting character in a Nickelodeon show doesn't exactly make you an A-list star.

[ManPerson]

This is what I'd suggest
100. Depeche Mode
101. The Jackson 5/The Jacksons
102. The Platters
103. Jackie Wilson
104. Missy Elliott
105. Earth, Wind & Fire
106. Mary J. Blige
107. Wynonie Harris
108. Roy Brown
109. Van Morrison
110. Cream
111. The Isley Brothers
112. The Shirelles
113. The Dominoes
114. The Clovers
115. Ruth Brown
116. Joy Division/New Order
117. Red Hot Chili Peppers
118. Fugees/Lauryn Hill
119. Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons
120. The Weeknd
121. George Michael/Wham!
122. Eric Clapton
123. John Lennon
124. Deep Purple
125. Santana
126. The Band
127. The Orioles
128. The Four Tops
129. Justin Timberlake
130. Blondie
131. Billy Joel
132. Iron Maiden
133. Talking Heads
134. The Smiths
135. The Cure
136. Sex Pistols
137. Bad Bunny
138. Oasis
139. TLC
140. Ariana Grande

[Tim]

Not opposed to these changes, Man.

[Tim]

Changed my mind on some artists in #141-150 range (Big Joe Turner, Johnny Otis, Chic, Eddie Cochran, Iggy Pop)

125. Santana
126. Big Joe Turner
127. Johnny Otis
128. Chic
129. The Band
130. The Orioles
131. The Four Tops
132. Justin Timberlake
133. Blondie
134. Billy Joel
135. Iron Maiden
136. Talking Heads
137. The Smiths
138. The Cure
139. Eddie Cochran
140. Sex Pistols
141. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
142. Bad Bunny
143. Oasis
144. TLC
145. Daft Punk
146. Kate Bush
147. Roxy Music
148. Genesis
149. Ariana Grande
150. Lana Del Rey

[Fido]

I disagree with lowering the Four Seasons, they kill in popularity and were very influential, the only thing they do worse in is acclaim (critical, that is). I refer to this previous discussion to explain everything better than I could: https://web.archive.org/web/20240515163 ... =11&t=1033
I can see them just below Ruth Brown
I haven't looked at the last revision yet

[ManPerson]

I'd have JDNO over them at least.

[Tim]

Yeah I'd at least give them influence and critical acclaim over Four Seasons with their influence on post-punk, gothic rock, alternative dance, etc. arguably trumping Four Seasons' influence on vocal groups and the use of falsetto.

[Fido]

I don't know, the Four Seasons have influenced some of the greatest artists of all time, like the Beach Boys or the Bee Gees. From https://primarywave.com/writer/the-four-seasons/: Frankie and the Seasons have influenced many other great recording artists. That was acknowledged in dozens of recent tributes collected for Jersey Beat, the newly released Four Seasons boxed set. For example, from Barry Gibb: “Frankie Valli to me has become one of the hallmark voices of our generation. From the deepest emotions of his real voice to the power of his falsetto, he created a style that we all still strive to emulate.” From Billy Joel: “I wrote ‘Uptown Girl’ as the flip side to the story of ‘Rag Doll.’ I always loved that record.” And from Brian Wilson: “In the early ’60s the Four Seasons were my favorite group. I thought they were fantastic. The voice blend was fantastic. The competition helped me to get cracking. It inspired me, because they made good music. I went to the piano thinking I could top their music.”

There's also their pervasive cultural presence, with stuff like Jersey Boys being very succesful almost half a century after.

[Tim]

Nice find, Fido. Tbh unlikely that Joy Division could have influenced Beach Boys, Bee Gees or Billy Joel.

[Fido]

Or any artist as important, who in turn have influenced thousands more.

Anyway, my take on the rest:

125. Big Joe Turner
126. Santana
127. Johnny Otis
128. The Band
129. The Orioles
130. The Four Tops
131. Justin Timberlake
132. Blondie
133. Billy Joel
134. Iron Maiden
135. Chic
136. Talking Heads
137. The Smiths
138. The Cure
139. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
140. Sex Pistols
141. Oasis
142. Daft Punk
143. TLC
144. Kate Bush
145. Roxy Music
146. Genesis
147. Lana del Rey
148. Eddie Cochran
149. Bad Bunny
150. Ariana Grande

I'll give up on Billy Joel. Chic shouldn't be so high, their short career kinda hurts them, with just 4 top 10 hits and two top 10 albums at the peak of disco. Maiden at this point have surpassed them imo, especially taking into account that they work in an uncommercial style on music. Still a good addition to this group as they do well across the criteria. Iggy and the Stooges beat the Pistols in influence and if we are counting Iggy's solo career they win comfortably. The next bunch I could see ordered a different way but that's what I came up with. Cochran kills in influence but not much on the rest, due to his short career too, only #28 on the 50s list.

Now, I thought more about Bad Bunny and ok to him being on the list, but, like Ariana, he shouldn't be so high. While he should get some credit for the popularization of Latin music in the US, he came too late to be considered a game changer in that regard. Reggaeton and Latin rap were already 30 years old when he started, the market already existed (a HUGE market) and even in the US he came years after the road paved by Ricky Martin, Santana, Shakira, Daddy Yankee, Don Omar, and especially the boom that was Despacito, which is THE turning point (and which featured Daddy Yankee too!). He has ridden the wave, but he didn't set it in motion. And since he is so recent, you can hardly say a lot of artists are influenced by him, while most Latin rap and reggaeton artists are influenced by the artists previously mentioned, including Bad Bunny. His acclaim is also way below others in this league, and he's also over artists with decades of influence, acclaim and popularity on their backs. This is why it's better to be cautious with artists this recent.

[Tim]

Or any artist as important, who in turn have influenced thousands more.

Joy Division did influence U2 and The Cure albeit no artists of Brian Wilson's stature that's true.