Greatest Rock Artists Of All Time (Revision Version)

[Tim]

I am not opposed to most of these changes, Fido, but I'd say CSNY are a bit high in your iteration. Let's quickly compare them with Daft Punk/Oasis/TLC trio for some perspective.

Vs Daft Punk
Influence (incl. Cultural): Daft Punk
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: Daft Punk

Vs Oasis
Influence (incl. Cultural): Oasis
Popularity: Oasis
Acclaim: CSNY

Vs TLC
Influence (incl. Cultural): TLC
Popularity: TLC
Acclaim: CSNY

Feel free to dispute of course but I'd say none of these breakdowns are particularly controversial, the problem with CSNY is that I just don't see their influence as a super group approaching that of Byrds or Neil solo, other than culturally maybe while obvi Daft Punk was seminal in electronic music, Oasis in britpop, TLC for modern girl groups/contemporary R&B. Popularity they do well but not as well as TLC and Oasis are beasts in UK popularity.

[Tim]

I wouldn't have R. Kelly too high, since I think his popularity and acclaim have definitely been hindered by his actions, and I'd say a lot more than someone like Kanye.

Do we think Afrika Bambaataa's case is similar? Of course musically he's still seminal influence on hip-hop and electro but I'd say his acclaim definitely been tainted by his allegations, lasting popularity as well and truth be told, he does not have much initial popularity either, Planet Rock aside. Btw should Soulsonic Force be included under his listing?

[ManPerson]

I don't think Afrika Bambaataa has been affected quite as much. R. Kelly is probably more known for his sexual misconduct than his music at this point.

[Tim]

Here's how I'd re-rank the next 10:

1. Sam & Dave
2. Elvis Costello
3. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
4. The Yardbirds
5. Pixies
6. Dire Straits
7. KISS
8. Paul Simon
9. Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
10. Frank Ocean

Sam & Dave and Elvis Costello seem like they should be atop of this group, high peer acclaim/musical impact for both plus decent amount of influence, again for both. Then there are generous placements on older lists, Sam & Dave #12 on Samp's live artists list, #33 on 1960s list and Costello making the old top 100 (was he too high? Most likely. Should he be dropped as much as ~100 spots? Prolly no).

Think Frankie Lymon was to Black rock/doo wop/R&B what Eddie Cochran was to guitar driven white rock. Huge influence on Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, hell, all of Motown plus a beloved vocalist. Not saying his earlier position was egregious but given that he's actually placed higher than Cochran on often mentioned Samp's 1950s list (#23 v #28) think bump for him is in order.

I'd say Yardbirds with their influence on blues rock, hard rock/heavy metal and psychdelic rock, decent amount of singles success in UK and, to lesser degree, US plus being a wellspring for 3 of rock's greatest guitar players got shafted a bit, I'd give them influence and popularity over Pixies, among others.

[Fido]

Well, CSNY's influence also extends outside of folk rock, along with giving a big boost to the careers of its members. From wiki article on their debut: "The album proved very influential on many levels to the dominant popular music scene in America for much of the 1970s. The success of the album generated respect for the group within the industry and galvanized interest in signing similar acts, many of whom came under management and representation by the CSN team of Elliot Roberts and David Geffen. Strong sales, combined with the group's emphasis on personal confession in its writing, paved the way for the success of the singer-songwriter movement of the early 1970s. Their use of personal events in their material without resorting to subterfuge, their talents in vocal harmony, their cultivation of painstaking studio craft, as well as the Laurel Canyon ethos that surrounded the group and their associates, established an aesthetic for a number of acts that came to define the "California sound" of the ensuing decade, including Eagles, Jackson Browne, post-1974 Fleetwood Mac, and others." That's the kind of far-reaching influence that doesn't limit to one particular style and is not a easy to pin down. And even though the Byrds, Dylan and others were more influential on folk rock, it's still like a 4 year difference. Are Daft Punk or TLC more seminal on their respective styles? Electronic music and R&B were decades old at that point, with established scenes and artists. There's also cultural influence, which is maybe getting underrated since it's not a full criterion anymore, but whatever. Their strongest criterion is still acclaim though. I question Daft Punk being more acclaimed despite AM, especially when taking into account musical impact.

I disagree with Ariana winning acclaim against Kool & the Gang, they were considered great musicians who mastered many styles, and songs like Celebration are so transcendent that it's also weird saying she is more popular. They are also influential on funk and disco, if anything they are too low.

On R. Kelly I don't know, his legacy is really tainted at this point, but I was actually thinking of putting him over Ross. He is definitely more influential, and I'd give him popularity too considering she had the advantage of coming from the most popular girl group ever.

[Tim]

You make some good points re: CSNY but I'd say Daft Punk are revered within electronic music circles despite not having household names in their ranks unlike CSNY. I guess electronic music is a bit on periphery of rock genre but they do have a lot of crossover appeal, think their collaborations at Random Access Memories among other examples. I guess I should not have said blanket "influential on electronic music" for them but they are a key name in French House and were responsible for further popularization of EDM during the 2000s.

[ManPerson]

Well, CSNY's influence also extends outside of folk rock, along with giving a big boost to the careers of its members. From wiki article on their debut: "The album proved very influential on many levels to the dominant popular music scene in America for much of the 1970s. The success of the album generated respect for the group within the industry and galvanized interest in signing similar acts, many of whom came under management and representation by the CSN team of Elliot Roberts and David Geffen. Strong sales, combined with the group's emphasis on personal confession in its writing, paved the way for the success of the singer-songwriter movement of the early 1970s. Their use of personal events in their material without resorting to subterfuge, their talents in vocal harmony, their cultivation of painstaking studio craft, as well as the Laurel Canyon ethos that surrounded the group and their associates, established an aesthetic for a number of acts that came to define the "California sound" of the ensuing decade, including Eagles, Jackson Browne, post-1974 Fleetwood Mac, and others." That's the kind of far-reaching influence that doesn't limit to one particular style and is not a easy to pin down. And even though the Byrds, Dylan and others were more influential on folk rock, it's still like a 4 year difference. Are Daft Punk or TLC more seminal on their respective styles? Electronic music and R&B were decades old at that point, with established scenes and artists. There's also cultural influence, which is maybe getting underrated since it's not a full criterion anymore, but whatever. Their strongest criterion is still acclaim though. I question Daft Punk being more acclaimed despite AM, especially when taking into account musical impact.

I disagree with Ariana winning acclaim against Kool & the Gang, they were considered great musicians who mastered many styles, and songs like Celebration are so transcendent that it's also weird saying she is more popular. They are also influential on funk and disco, if anything they are too low.

On R. Kelly I don't know, his legacy is really tainted at this point, but I was actually thinking of putting him over Ross. He is definitely more influential, and I'd give him popularity too considering she had the advantage of coming from the most popular girl group ever.

I think TLC were more transformational to the sound of r&b than CSNY were to folk rock, while Daft Punk pretty much pioneered french house.

Overall, I think influence is pretty much a wash between them if cultural impact is taken into account (though Daft Punk may be a bit behind the other two).

I also don't see Daft Punk taking acclaim as really being a question tbh. Their stature is almost unparalleled in electronic music.

[Tim]

Continuing with ddd's favorite thing, breakdowns

Vs Martha & the Vandellas
Influence (incl. Cultural): close
Popularity: Martha & the Vandellas
Acclaim: close

You can of course dispute popularity in this case but I'd say Martha and the Vandellas' singles success edges out CSNY's albums success slightly.

Vs Iron Maiden
Influence (incl. Cultural): Iron Maiden
Popularity: Iron Maiden
Acclaim: CSNY

Vs Chic
Influence (incl. Cultural): Chic
Popularity: close
Acclaim: CSNY

Not sure about popularity but on first glance Chic's singles success is generally offset by CSNY's albums success.

Vs Talking Heads
Influence (incl. Cultural): Talking Heads
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: Talking Heads

Vs The Smiths
Influence (incl. Cultural): The Smiths
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: close

Vs The Cure
Influence (incl. Cultural): The Cure
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: close

Vs Iggy Pop & the Stooges
Influence (incl. Cultural): The Stooges
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: CSNY

Vs Sex Pistols
Influence (incl. Cultural): Sex Pistols
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: CSNY

Judging by that, I'd prolly put them between The Cure and The Stooges, maybe even slightly higher than that but again, open to further arguments.

[ManPerson]

I think The Smiths and The Cure take acclaim over CSNY, I don't see CSNY's status in folk rock in terms of musical impact, or whatever, as necessarily being any higher than The Smiths and The Cure in alt rock, while I think The Smiths and The Cure both have more acclaimed discographies, which I don't think is particularly arguable. I think compared to the Stooges and Sex Pistols acclaim is a tie.

I'd say compared to the Smiths popularity is may be a tie, while I'd give The Cure popularity, especially if lasting popularity is given due consideration.

[ManPerson]

How about this?
131. Frank Zappa
132. Etta James
133. Wilson Pickett
134. Janis Joplin
135. Justin Timberlake
136. Blondie
137. Billy Joel
138. Martha & the Vandellas
139. Iron Maiden
140. Chic
141. Talking Heads
142. The Smiths
143. The Cure
144. Crosby, Stills & Nash (& Young)
145. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
146. Sex Pistols
147. Oasis
148. Daft Punk
149. TLC
150. Kate Bush
151. Roxy Music
152. Genesis
153. Nas
154. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
155. Eddie Cochran
156. Patti Smith
157. A Tribe Called Quest
158. Lana del Rey
159. Alicia Keys
160. Chicago
161. Rush
162. Usher
163. Bad Bunny
164. Kool & the Gang
165. Ariana Grande
166. Hall & Oates
167. Phil Collins
168. Cher
169. Diana Ross
170. R. Kelly

Figured Hall & Oates and Phil Collins looked a bit high, Ariana clearly takes popularity over Hall & Oates I think, not by a huge amount, but clearly nonetheless, I think she's probably a bit more acclaimed as well, and not as influential but it's not like Hall & Oates have huge influence or anything. Compared to Phil, popularity is fairly close, acclaim would clearly go to Ariana and influence would go to Phil, but not by as much, I think.

[ManPerson]

Here's how I'd re-rank the next 10:

1. Sam & Dave
2. Elvis Costello
3. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
4. The Yardbirds
5. Pixies
6. Dire Straits
7. KISS
8. Paul Simon
9. Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
10. Frank Ocean

Sam & Dave and Elvis Costello seem like they should be atop of this group, high peer acclaim/musical impact for both plus decent amount of influence, again for both. Then there are generous placements on older lists, Sam & Dave #12 on Samp's live artists list, #33 on 1960s list and Costello making the old top 100 (was he too high? Most likely. Should he be dropped as much as ~100 spots? Prolly no).

Think Frankie Lymon was to Black rock/doo wop/R&B what Eddie Cochran was to guitar driven white rock. Huge influence on Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, hell, all of Motown plus a beloved vocalist. Not saying his earlier position was egregious but given that he's actually placed higher than Cochran on often mentioned Samp's 1950s list (#23 v #28) think bump for him is in order.

I'd say Yardbirds with their influence on blues rock, hard rock/heavy metal and psychdelic rock, decent amount of singles success in UK and, to lesser degree, US plus being a wellspring for 3 of rock's greatest guitar players got shafted a bit, I'd give them influence and popularity over Pixies, among others.

This seems to overemphasize influence slightly. I think Dire Straits take popularity as easily as Yardbirds take influence (I'd argue more easily, though that's hard to quantify) and I'd give them acclaim as well. Similar deal with Frankie Lymon, though the Teenagers are more influential. I'd say Paul Simon breaks down with them similarly. I also think Frank Ocean clearly takes acclaim and popularity over Afrika Bambaataa. Other than that I kind of like this order.

So, I'd suggest

1. Sam & Dave
2. Elvis Costello
3. Dire Straits
4. Paul Simon
5. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
6. The Yardbirds
7. Pixies
8. KISS
9. Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
10. Frank Ocean

[Tim]

No particular objections to either of two lists, I will attempt to re-insert the ten into the main list a little later.

[Fido]

Figured Hall & Oates and Phil Collins looked a bit high, Ariana clearly takes popularity over Hall & Oates I think, not by a huge amount, but clearly nonetheless, I think she's probably a bit more acclaimed as well, and not as influential but it's not like Hall & Oates have huge influence or anything. Compared to Phil, popularity is fairly close, acclaim would clearly go to Ariana and influence would go to Phil, but not by as much, I think.

Ariana takes popularity because she's an industry plant and half of their biggest hits are collabs. If we stop putting things into context then the criteria becomes worthless to judge achievements. Against Collins she doesn't even win popularity so I don't see much of a case. I can live with the CSN placement though.

No comments on Kelly over Ross? I meant that as a legitimate point.

[ManPerson]

Figured Hall & Oates and Phil Collins looked a bit high, Ariana clearly takes popularity over Hall & Oates I think, not by a huge amount, but clearly nonetheless, I think she's probably a bit more acclaimed as well, and not as influential but it's not like Hall & Oates have huge influence or anything. Compared to Phil, popularity is fairly close, acclaim would clearly go to Ariana and influence would go to Phil, but not by as much, I think.

Ariana takes popularity because she's an industry plant and half of their biggest hits are collabs. If we stop putting things into context then the criteria becomes worthless to judge achievements. Against Collins she doesn't even win popularity so I don't see much of a case. I can live with the CSN placement though.

No comments on Kelly over Ross? I meant that as a legitimate point.

I'd say
Acclaim: Ross
Popularity: Close, leaning towards Ross, imo
Influence: R. Kelly
I guess I could see it.

Punishing artists for being 'industry plants' seems to be veering too far into subjectivity, tbh. In terms of half of her biggest hits supposedly being collabs, her 5 most streamed songs on Spotify are all solo songs, so that's obviously a heavy exaggeration. Phil also has plenty of hits that were collaborations as well.

I don't see how recognizing that an artist who is obviously extremely popular does well in popularity makes the criteria 'worthless'.

[Tim]

Plus collaborations are really common these days and have been for a while, this is just one of the ways for an artist to get exposure from other artist' audience. Of course, they should be put in proper context but I don't think it's binary of "collaboration = should not count as a hit".

Also I think Ariana generally deserves some credit for being an eclectic pop artist with decent amount of variety among her albums even if she's not pioneered anything. Sweetener especially, Thank U, Next, Eternal Sunshine are all pretty highly critically acclaimed albums.

[Dubrow555]

Slotting R. Kelly at #169 would be HILARIOUS.