Greatest Rock Artists Of All Time (Revision Version)

[ManPerson]

I wouldn't have Usher above Rush, as he only wins popularity. Having Chicago below Hall & Oates would be terrible as I don't think they beat them in anything.

Chicago's longevity is relevant because that's lasting popularity.

I see lasting popularity as the popularity of music years after it's released, not artists making music for a long time.

[Tim]

I'd say longevity matters as pertains to this list as long as artist continues to release popular, acclaimed or, in rarer cases, influential material.

[Fido]

I don't know what Lana has on Tribe other than popularity. I guess I can live with something like this:

150. Eddie Cochran
151. Patti Smith
152. A Tribe Called Quest
153. Lana del Rey
154. Chicago
155. Rush
156. Usher
157. Hall & Oates
158. Bad Bunny
159. Phil Collins
160. Ariana Grande

[Tim]

I'd take it.

[Tim]

Wilson Pickett seems like the one we overlooked previously, more chart success than either Zappa or Etta, high peer acclaim/musical impact during the 60s, important influence on Southern soul & garage rock, top 20 on Samp's 1960s artists list, near the top 100 on Brian's old list. Janis Joplin also got shafted, sure, not great longevity but highly influential, cultural icon, acclaimed and even quite a bit of posthumous success with #1 single and album. Booker T & MGs I'd say is similar case to Chic, where part of their legacy is for their production/stint as a backing band rather than a lead artist but highly respected & influential nevertheless, top 40 on Samp's 1960s artists list. Also gave bumps to Alicia Keys (strong combo of popularity & acclaim), CSNY (same plus some cultural impact as well as influence on contemporary folk rock), Nas (I'd give him acclaim & influence over Bad Bunny clearly, among others), Kool & the Gang (great longevity and versatility and of course Celebration is one of these omnipresent songs)

130. The Four Tops
131. Wilson Pickett
132. Frank Zappa & The Mothers of Invention
133. Etta James
134. Justin Timberlake
135. Blondie
136. Janis Joplin/Big Brother and the Holding Company
137. Billy Joel
138. Martha & the Vandellas
139. Iron Maiden
140. Chic
141. Talking Heads
142. The Smiths
143. The Cure
144. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
145. Sex Pistols
146. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
147. Oasis
148. Daft Punk
149. TLC
150. Kate Bush
151. Roxy Music
152. Genesis
153. Eddie Cochran
154. Patti Smith
155. A Tribe Called Quest
156. Alicia Keys
157. Lana Del Rey
158. Nas
159. Chicago
160. Rush
161. Usher
162. Daryl Hall & John Oates
163. Bad Bunny
164. Crosby, Stills, Nash (& Young)
165. Phil Collins
166. Kool & the Gang
167. Cher
168. Diana Ross
169. Ariana Grande
170. R. Kelly

[ManPerson]

I'd say The Smiths and The Cure take popularity (at least they take lasting pretty easily) and acclaim over Janis Joplin while being quite influential in their own right. So I'd have her lower.

[Fido]

My take:

131. Frank Zappa
132. Etta James
133. Wilson Pickett
134. Janis Joplin
135. Justin Timberlake
136. Blondie
137. Billy Joel
138. Crosby, Stills & Nash (& Young)
139. Martha & the Vandellas
140. Iron Maiden
141. Chic
142. Talking Heads
143. The Smiths
144. The Cure
145. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
146. Sex Pistols
147. Oasis
148. Daft Punk
149. TLC
150. Kate Bush
151. Roxy Music
152. Genesis
153. Nas
154. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
155. Eddie Cochran
156. Patti Smith
157. A Tribe Called Quest
158. Alicia Keys
159. Lana del Rey
160. Chicago
161. Rush
162. Usher
163. Hall & Oates
164. Bad Bunny
165. Phil Collins
166. Kool & the Gang
167. Cher
168. Ariana Grande
169. Diana Ross
170. R. Kelly

I'd say Etta and Zappa are both more influential and acclaimed than Pickett, even if not by much. Janis I'd have in that group too, far more influential than the Smiths/Cure and she only loses acclaim when not taking into account musical impact, which is enormous as one of the best singers, best live performers, and considering all the tributes she has received from some of the best artists of all time. Big bump for CSNY as I don't see where they are lacking. Influential on folk rock, singer/songwriters, their vocal harmonies, and especially cultural influence on the Woodstock generation and counter culture. Their acclaim and musical impact is off the charts, they were all considered geniuses at the top of their game, and their popularity is also great, with all their albums being multi-platinum sellers. Even their 80s albums sold more than a million copies! Nas I'd also have higher considering his top notch acclaim as a lyricist. The MGs are a tough act to judge as their more important work is as sidemen, that's why I placed them lower, with Cochran. Keys vs Lana I could see as going either way. And I think Ariana beats Ross in acclaim and popularity, however that's a weird bunch with Cher also being a famous actress, Ross' most important work being with the Supremes and R. Kelly as a producer.

[ManPerson]

I think I'd give Ariana acclaim and popularity over K&tG.

[Tim]

I am not opposed to most of these changes, Fido, but I'd say CSNY are a bit high in your iteration. Let's quickly compare them with Daft Punk/Oasis/TLC trio for some perspective.

Vs Daft Punk
Influence (incl. Cultural): Daft Punk
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: Daft Punk

Vs Oasis
Influence (incl. Cultural): Oasis
Popularity: Oasis
Acclaim: CSNY

Vs TLC
Influence (incl. Cultural): TLC
Popularity: TLC
Acclaim: CSNY

Feel free to dispute of course but I'd say none of these breakdowns are particularly controversial, the problem with CSNY is that I just don't see their influence as a super group approaching that of Byrds or Neil solo, other than culturally maybe while obvi Daft Punk was seminal in electronic music, Oasis in britpop, TLC for modern girl groups/contemporary R&B. Popularity they do well but not as well as TLC and Oasis are beasts in UK popularity.

[Tim]

I wouldn't have R. Kelly too high, since I think his popularity and acclaim have definitely been hindered by his actions, and I'd say a lot more than someone like Kanye.

Do we think Afrika Bambaataa's case is similar? Of course musically he's still seminal influence on hip-hop and electro but I'd say his acclaim definitely been tainted by his allegations, lasting popularity as well and truth be told, he does not have much initial popularity either, Planet Rock aside. Btw should Soulsonic Force be included under his listing?

[ManPerson]

I don't think Afrika Bambaataa has been affected quite as much. R. Kelly is probably more known for his sexual misconduct than his music at this point.

[Tim]

Here's how I'd re-rank the next 10:

1. Sam & Dave
2. Elvis Costello
3. Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
4. The Yardbirds
5. Pixies
6. Dire Straits
7. KISS
8. Paul Simon
9. Afrika Bambaataa & Soulsonic Force
10. Frank Ocean

Sam & Dave and Elvis Costello seem like they should be atop of this group, high peer acclaim/musical impact for both plus decent amount of influence, again for both. Then there are generous placements on older lists, Sam & Dave #12 on Samp's live artists list, #33 on 1960s list and Costello making the old top 100 (was he too high? Most likely. Should he be dropped as much as ~100 spots? Prolly no).

Think Frankie Lymon was to Black rock/doo wop/R&B what Eddie Cochran was to guitar driven white rock. Huge influence on Michael Jackson, Diana Ross, hell, all of Motown plus a beloved vocalist. Not saying his earlier position was egregious but given that he's actually placed higher than Cochran on often mentioned Samp's 1950s list (#23 v #28) think bump for him is in order.

I'd say Yardbirds with their influence on blues rock, hard rock/heavy metal and psychdelic rock, decent amount of singles success in UK and, to lesser degree, US plus being a wellspring for 3 of rock's greatest guitar players got shafted a bit, I'd give them influence and popularity over Pixies, among others.

[Fido]

Well, CSNY's influence also extends outside of folk rock, along with giving a big boost to the careers of its members. From wiki article on their debut: "The album proved very influential on many levels to the dominant popular music scene in America for much of the 1970s. The success of the album generated respect for the group within the industry and galvanized interest in signing similar acts, many of whom came under management and representation by the CSN team of Elliot Roberts and David Geffen. Strong sales, combined with the group's emphasis on personal confession in its writing, paved the way for the success of the singer-songwriter movement of the early 1970s. Their use of personal events in their material without resorting to subterfuge, their talents in vocal harmony, their cultivation of painstaking studio craft, as well as the Laurel Canyon ethos that surrounded the group and their associates, established an aesthetic for a number of acts that came to define the "California sound" of the ensuing decade, including Eagles, Jackson Browne, post-1974 Fleetwood Mac, and others." That's the kind of far-reaching influence that doesn't limit to one particular style and is not a easy to pin down. And even though the Byrds, Dylan and others were more influential on folk rock, it's still like a 4 year difference. Are Daft Punk or TLC more seminal on their respective styles? Electronic music and R&B were decades old at that point, with established scenes and artists. There's also cultural influence, which is maybe getting underrated since it's not a full criterion anymore, but whatever. Their strongest criterion is still acclaim though. I question Daft Punk being more acclaimed despite AM, especially when taking into account musical impact.

I disagree with Ariana winning acclaim against Kool & the Gang, they were considered great musicians who mastered many styles, and songs like Celebration are so transcendent that it's also weird saying she is more popular. They are also influential on funk and disco, if anything they are too low.

On R. Kelly I don't know, his legacy is really tainted at this point, but I was actually thinking of putting him over Ross. He is definitely more influential, and I'd give him popularity too considering she had the advantage of coming from the most popular girl group ever.

[Tim]

You make some good points re: CSNY but I'd say Daft Punk are revered within electronic music circles despite not having household names in their ranks unlike CSNY. I guess electronic music is a bit on periphery of rock genre but they do have a lot of crossover appeal, think their collaborations at Random Access Memories among other examples. I guess I should not have said blanket "influential on electronic music" for them but they are a key name in French House and were responsible for further popularization of EDM during the 2000s.

[ManPerson]

Well, CSNY's influence also extends outside of folk rock, along with giving a big boost to the careers of its members. From wiki article on their debut: "The album proved very influential on many levels to the dominant popular music scene in America for much of the 1970s. The success of the album generated respect for the group within the industry and galvanized interest in signing similar acts, many of whom came under management and representation by the CSN team of Elliot Roberts and David Geffen. Strong sales, combined with the group's emphasis on personal confession in its writing, paved the way for the success of the singer-songwriter movement of the early 1970s. Their use of personal events in their material without resorting to subterfuge, their talents in vocal harmony, their cultivation of painstaking studio craft, as well as the Laurel Canyon ethos that surrounded the group and their associates, established an aesthetic for a number of acts that came to define the "California sound" of the ensuing decade, including Eagles, Jackson Browne, post-1974 Fleetwood Mac, and others." That's the kind of far-reaching influence that doesn't limit to one particular style and is not a easy to pin down. And even though the Byrds, Dylan and others were more influential on folk rock, it's still like a 4 year difference. Are Daft Punk or TLC more seminal on their respective styles? Electronic music and R&B were decades old at that point, with established scenes and artists. There's also cultural influence, which is maybe getting underrated since it's not a full criterion anymore, but whatever. Their strongest criterion is still acclaim though. I question Daft Punk being more acclaimed despite AM, especially when taking into account musical impact.

I disagree with Ariana winning acclaim against Kool & the Gang, they were considered great musicians who mastered many styles, and songs like Celebration are so transcendent that it's also weird saying she is more popular. They are also influential on funk and disco, if anything they are too low.

On R. Kelly I don't know, his legacy is really tainted at this point, but I was actually thinking of putting him over Ross. He is definitely more influential, and I'd give him popularity too considering she had the advantage of coming from the most popular girl group ever.

I think TLC were more transformational to the sound of r&b than CSNY were to folk rock, while Daft Punk pretty much pioneered french house.

Overall, I think influence is pretty much a wash between them if cultural impact is taken into account (though Daft Punk may be a bit behind the other two).

I also don't see Daft Punk taking acclaim as really being a question tbh. Their stature is almost unparalleled in electronic music.

[Tim]

Continuing with ddd's favorite thing, breakdowns

Vs Martha & the Vandellas
Influence (incl. Cultural): close
Popularity: Martha & the Vandellas
Acclaim: close

You can of course dispute popularity in this case but I'd say Martha and the Vandellas' singles success edges out CSNY's albums success slightly.

Vs Iron Maiden
Influence (incl. Cultural): Iron Maiden
Popularity: Iron Maiden
Acclaim: CSNY

Vs Chic
Influence (incl. Cultural): Chic
Popularity: close
Acclaim: CSNY

Not sure about popularity but on first glance Chic's singles success is generally offset by CSNY's albums success.

Vs Talking Heads
Influence (incl. Cultural): Talking Heads
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: Talking Heads

Vs The Smiths
Influence (incl. Cultural): The Smiths
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: close

Vs The Cure
Influence (incl. Cultural): The Cure
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: close

Vs Iggy Pop & the Stooges
Influence (incl. Cultural): The Stooges
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: CSNY

Vs Sex Pistols
Influence (incl. Cultural): Sex Pistols
Popularity: CSNY
Acclaim: CSNY

Judging by that, I'd prolly put them between The Cure and The Stooges, maybe even slightly higher than that but again, open to further arguments.

[ManPerson]

I think The Smiths and The Cure take acclaim over CSNY, I don't see CSNY's status in folk rock in terms of musical impact, or whatever, as necessarily being any higher than The Smiths and The Cure in alt rock, while I think The Smiths and The Cure both have more acclaimed discographies, which I don't think is particularly arguable. I think compared to the Stooges and Sex Pistols acclaim is a tie.

I'd say compared to the Smiths popularity is may be a tie, while I'd give The Cure popularity, especially if lasting popularity is given due consideration.

[ManPerson]

How about this?
131. Frank Zappa
132. Etta James
133. Wilson Pickett
134. Janis Joplin
135. Justin Timberlake
136. Blondie
137. Billy Joel
138. Martha & the Vandellas
139. Iron Maiden
140. Chic
141. Talking Heads
142. The Smiths
143. The Cure
144. Crosby, Stills & Nash (& Young)
145. Iggy Pop & the Stooges
146. Sex Pistols
147. Oasis
148. Daft Punk
149. TLC
150. Kate Bush
151. Roxy Music
152. Genesis
153. Nas
154. Booker T. & the M.G.’s
155. Eddie Cochran
156. Patti Smith
157. A Tribe Called Quest
158. Lana del Rey
159. Alicia Keys
160. Chicago
161. Rush
162. Usher
163. Bad Bunny
164. Kool & the Gang
165. Ariana Grande
166. Hall & Oates
167. Phil Collins
168. Cher
169. Diana Ross
170. R. Kelly

Figured Hall & Oates and Phil Collins looked a bit high, Ariana clearly takes popularity over Hall & Oates I think, not by a huge amount, but clearly nonetheless, I think she's probably a bit more acclaimed as well, and not as influential but it's not like Hall & Oates have huge influence or anything. Compared to Phil, popularity is fairly close, acclaim would clearly go to Ariana and influence would go to Phil, but not by as much, I think.